Whispers

My original post was intended to illustrate the wonder I feel at how beleiving in a creator can effect us so greatly, one way or the other. There seems to be a huge amount of power and influence in how we feel about this very subject.

I actually said in that post...."Try and forget for a second whether or not God exists, and tell me how belief in something can make such a difference to someones life?"

I am hoping to explore what it is about the possibility of a creator, that so makes a difference in people lives...

QUOTE---the buddist tests, according to YOU, would prove that budda existed, b/c its followers experience so much happiness b/c of it as well.

I am not entirely sure that I have indicated what you say. I agree that no matter what the emotional results of a belief are, they do not PROVE anything. Buddhists do not have to believe in anything, as they are invited to explore the teachings and test them for themselves. Belief does not play such a big part, at least not in Therevadan Buddhism.

Someone else said..."what distinguishes Your 'God' from the rest"?
Again I am happy to discuss this in another thread, but I am trying to gage your thoughts and views about how believing in a creator can effect someone so greatly. If we are merely the end result of a long term chemical reaction, what is it about us beleieving we are more than that, which can lead to such extremes?

Ad Astra

I get that same great feeling too, especially when I look at the stars at night, smell a flower, or listen to Jimi Hendrix, and think to myself, "There is no God."

Yes, belief in a god certainly can change someone's life. It can make one suicidal, turn one into a murderous individual who believes he/she is performing "God's will", or transform one into nothing more that an automaton that does little more than spew dogmatic drivel at every turn.

How about this: there is no creator. And if there is, he/she/it's been sitting on his/her/it's big cosmic ass for about 13.6 billion years, and has not made a single difference in anyone's life.

What makes you think we're then end result of anything? If you are looking at it from an evolutionary standpoint, then there is no "end", and certainly no creature that could be in any way, shape, or form an "end result." If you are talking from a more universal standpoint, sorry to break it to you, but the universe is going to go on for a very long time after the last human dies.

Some people are stupid. Some people are stubborn. Some people think they're better than others. Some people need a god/higher power to act as an adult security-blanket. Some people use religion as a reason to kill/destroy/etc. There are a lot of possibilities.

Whispers

QUOTE---I get that same great feeling too, especially when I look at the stars at night, smell a flower, or listen to Jimi Hendrix, and think to myself, "There is no God."

I know, isnt it mad how we tend to see or not see, depending on our belief state at the time...

QUOTE---Yes, belief in a god certainly can change someone's life. It can make one suicidal, turn one into a murderous individual who believes he/she is performing "God's will", or transform one into nothing more that an automaton that does little more than spew dogmatic drivel at every turn.

I agree. Its bizarre what the belief can do. Good and bad.....This is the point of my post really.

QUOTE---How about this: there is no creator. And if there is, he/she/it's been sitting on his/her/it's big cosmic ass for about 13.6 billion years, and has not made a single difference in anyone's life.

Not made a single difference? Perhaps that is a little bit of an exaggeration?

QUOTE---What makes you think we're then end result of anything? If you are looking at it from an evolutionary standpoint, then there is no "end", and certainly no creature that could be in any way, shape, or form an "end result." If you are talking from a more universal standpoint, sorry to break it to you, but the universe is going to go on for a very long time after the last human dies.

If we blow ourselves up in nuclear war, and ALL life on earth is destroyed, than evolution will end, at least as far as our planet goes. Perhaps end result is the wrong term? What I should have said and actually meant, was that we are the current result of the coming together of chemicals from millions of years ago...

QUOTE---Some people are stupid. Some people are stubborn. Some people think they're better than others. Some people need a god/higher power to act as an adult security-blanket. Some people use religion as a reason to kill/destroy/etc. There are a lot of possibilities.

Some people are clever. Some people are open to other possibilities. Some people know they are equal to others. Some people do not need a higher power or God, because god created them. Some people use getting cut up on the freeway as an excuse to kill someone. Some people use getting dropped by a love one, as a reason to kill someone. Some fans fight at football matches, and football gets a bad press. Is it the fans with the problem, or is the football itself? I agree there are many possibilities...

Stephen T-B

If I understand this correctly, Whispers, you attribute the good feeling you get when thinking about your God to the fact that your God exists.
That’s reasonable.
And I expect you attribute the absence of any good feelings I get when I think about your God to the fact that there’s something wrong with me.
That’s also reasonable.
But there’s a little crack which runs from top to bottom of the way you think about these things, and I shall try to point it out to you.
Imagine this: my friend Chris believes that what we are, what we think, what we do and what we see are gifts of the Great Green Monkey which lives in his attic, and that those who do not acknowledge her existence will, when they die, spend eternity up to their necks in her seething digestive juices.
He therefore prays to her every night before going to sleep that she should open my eyes to her reality and thus avoid this terrible fate.
After 15 years of these regular, heart-felt supplications, I still deny she exists.
What is the reasonable conclusion to be drawn from this: that I am being extremely perverse and simply not heeding the urges of my “heart,” or that nothing’s happened because he is praying to something which doesn’t exist?

Now consider this: My Uncle (the Franciscan Friar) my brother, sister and very many of my cousins pray on a regular basis that I should share their belief in God and the saving power of Jesus. While they were still alive, my parents also prayed for me - and bare in mind when I tell you this that my father was a clergyman of the charismatic persuasion who healed and spoke in tongues.
And what effect has all this praying for me had? No more that if my friend Chris had been asking the Great Green Monkey in his attic to make me believe in her.
What is the reasonable conclusion to be drawn from this: that I am being extremely perverse and simply not heeding the urges of my “heart,” or that nothing’s happened because all these people are praying to something which doesn’t exist?

Do you think if YOU prayed for me it would make any difference? Try it. I’ll let you know if it does.

Jobar

I am not entirely sure that I have indicated what you say. I agree that no matter what the emotional results of a belief are, they do not PROVE anything. Buddhists do not have to believe in anything, as they are invited to explore the teachings and test them for themselves. Belief does not play such a big part, at least not in Therevadan Buddhism.

Whispers, I've been wondering why your expressed beliefs seemed strange to me. You may practice Buddhism now, but you started as a Christian, correct? I think you are still stuck between those two worldviews.

Did you know that most here consider Buddhists and other pantheists 'infidels'- because they do not believe in a personal, monotheistic God? S'true. Buddha himself made statements to the effect that the existence or nonexistence of god(s) was irrelevant- his primary message was how to transcend the suffering of the world, and achieve Nirvana. It may be said that Gautama was an agnostic!

So your own seeming belief in a separate creator is a stumbling block in your path to enlightenment. If you feel the need of a god, look for it within yourself. The Hindu Vedas tell us 'Thou art That'- you, in your very deepest doubt and uncertainty, are the very thing you are seeking!

Let me give you some links to other threads where I have discussed my own beliefs- I name myself an atheist/pantheist, and find that the two seemingly contradictory philosophies actually brace each other up.

Here
here
here
here
and here.

Whispers

I see your point, about why we should give significance to and believe in one supposed myth and then discount another. This is good thinking and logical. Why this but not that? What is the formula for coming into relationship with God, and would it work if I attempted the same formula in believing in a neon pink chicken that lives in my mother-in-law's garage?

There are many tests for truth and falsehood and we can apply them where necessary. These are not entirely failsafe but we can use them as a guide. Also, we must look at any evidence available, whether it be written, verbal, witnessed, claimed, directly experienced or rumoured. We can test claims made and see how the claims affect us.....or don’t......The problem is, that with issues of faith, if you only test to see the result, you are not offering faith and the test is doomed to failure. You have to believe, really believe to see results. Now the problem for some of you, is that the belief and the results are not conclusive as proof. In other words, if I believe in God and it affects me life for the better, this ONLY proves that believing in God, has benefit to me. It does not prove that God actually exists.....You are right, it does not, because if it did, faith would not be required.....and it is.

So we come again to my initial enquiry....If we are merely the random fluke of chemicals coming together, what is it about the belief in God that can effect this result of chemicals coming together in such a great way? Why can believing in God drive us to amazing acts of charity and kindness, or be wrongly interpreted and lead to callous and ruthless violence? I will agree with you now, and save you the job of pointing out, that whatever the reason it is still not PROOF that a creator even exists.

There has to be a movement of the heart and a step forward into the unknown, to come into relationship with God. This is not done as a step completely blind, but as the result of research, study, insight, reading etc etc. You put your faith in the creator, take a step forward in TRUST and live your life with the new relationship. As the relationship grows, so does the trust...Its not easy, but it is what it is. Only faith can find that out....

DMB

Whispers: I appreciate your sincerity (well, it seems like sincerity ). You have found a formula for a sense of wellbeing that works for you and you very kindly want to pass it on to the rest of us.
The trouble is that I am not at all sure that you weren't predisposed (perhaps by upbringing) to believe in a creator. It seems hard for you to grasp that there are people like me who don't have this predisposition. The more I learn of religions, the more I disbelieve. See my off-the-cuff list I posted earlier of things I don't believe in.

Telling people that they should trust in something that they see no reason to believe exists in the first place is like attempting to sell them snake oil.

I can quite understand why you feel this question might be better discussed in another thread, but are you suggesting that it doesn't matter which religious belief one happens to have, as long as one has faith? I suspect that that would be correct, whether you think so or not.
I am not sure of what you mean to imply by the concept of a "random fluke of chemicals coming together". So let's put that on one side and suppose that human beings and other species have arisen as the result of natural processes, some of which, at least, we understand. And that furthermore people who do research in neurology and the workings of the human brain and other systems are beginning to understand the complicated structures and biochemistry that lead to our thoughts, actions and emotions. In recent experiments it has even proved possible to cause mystic experiences as a result of brain stimulation in some subjects. Some, like Richard Dawkins, who was one of the guinea pigs, experienced nothing.

There is no doubt that some people will sacrifice themselves, or try to kill others as a result of certain kinds of stimulation, whether external or innate. Three weeks ago, a friend of mine was murdered by her schizophrenic son. No doubt he heard voices telling him to do it, as many such sufferers do. Others would go out and kill or be killed for the sake of a demagogue like Hitler. Belief of some kind is often involved in such actions, but there is always an unbelieving minority who don't go along with the crowd.

As with so much in science, much is still unknown about the workings of the brain, but it is already known which parts of the brain are active in meditation and certain other religious activities. In the end, all religion may be reduced to electro-chemistry, whether random fluke or not.

Jobar

You have to believe, really believe to see results.

Whispers, if you believe, really believe, in the Invisible Pink Unicorn (Peace be upon her holy hooves) then you will learn to see, in your mind's eye, the ineffable shade of invisible pinkness, and perceive the certain knowledge that we cannot see Her, and gain the faith to believe in Her Pinkness.

People have believed things a lot sillier than the IPU, Whispers. Look, you were talking about 'trying it for yourself' concerning Buddhism- you don't have to take it on faith.

So why are we expected to have to take Christianity on faith?

We've heard this so, so many times before, but we keep insisting on evidence.

pariah

sigh....you just don't get it.

I was simply using the buddism as a comparison to xianity...making it just as, or more, valid. nm i dont even care anymore

EGGO

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but you're telling me that why are we feeling that there is a God?

So please, tell me about the Shintoists? They sure as heck don't believe in God.

Tell me about the cultists, who definately have their beliefs pointing elsewhere.

I don't know if you just aren't totally understanding it, but this 'need' you keep insisting on is nothing more than a psychological desire more than anything.

"Faith is just such a poor example of evidence or proof. What I feel under faith has nothing to do with what anyone else feels.
Faith, of course, is not proof and should never be confused with evidence of any kind, even for yourself. Faith told us the world was flat and the sun moved around the earth...

Another possible outcome of faith without evidence could be that you are feeling something that just isn't there. It could be some kind of placebo effect as in the cases of people having their cancer cured via placebo medication. Or even worse, the feeling may be some evil/trickster god who is trying to keep you away from the real god.
Without evidence, faith is meaningless.
And as I have said and will say again, the overwhelming lack of evidence for a god leads me to say "no" to faith."