FoE

Are there any anthropologists here? I've heard from various sources that Neandertals invented the bow, but form other sources that they didn't even throw spears. So which is it?

Mageth

It's my understanding that they had and probably threw spears, didn't have the bow and arrow or the Atlatl (spear thrower).

ajm51987

From World History:The Human Experience:

The neanderthals did not use bows, bows came around with Cro-Magnon man, however, Neanderthals did use spears.

The book I am quoting from is published by National Geographic, so I am pretty sure its as accurate as possible.

-AJM

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: ajm51987 ]

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: ajm51987 ]</p>

FoE

Cool, thanks! Now if anyone is still interested in telling me things i should have learned in first year anthropology class, did the Neanderthals use throwing spears or just thrusting spears?

Defiant Heretic

From what I've heard, their spears were too large to be thrown any significant distance. They were most likely thrusting weapons only.

Oolon Colluphid

I’d be surprised if Neanderthals were incapable of using throwing spears. ‘Mere’ chimpanzees throw stones and sticks to (eg) fend off leopards, and they shove sticks they have adapted into trees to get out grubs etc. The mental-ability leap from Australopithecine to Neanderthal is surely much greater than the leap from what ‘mere’ chimps can do to throwing a stabbing weapon. So I suspect that if the Neanderthals didn’t do such things, the reason would more likely be cultural rather than biological.

But that’s just dandruff (ie, it’s off the top of my head ), so I’ll check in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671875388/internetinfidelsA/" target="_blank">Schick & Toth</a> and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226439631/internetinfidelsA/" target="_blank">Klein</a> tonight, and report back any further info.

As an aside on Neanderthal culture, does anyone know what the current status of the ‘Neanderthal flute’ is? Musical instrument or gnawed bone?

Cheers, DT

tronvillain

Of course, you have to remember the difference between being capable of throwing spears and being capable of making spears optimized for throwing.

As for the "flute", I am currently leaning towards "gnawed bone" (or at least "not a flute").

Oolon Colluphid

Of course, of course. But equally you have to remember that they were very nearly us, and compared to chimps (who can make tools), or something like H habilis which did too, they are us, as near as dammit. Remember that though it's anyone's guess what went on in them, Neanderthal brains were on average larger than Cro-Magnon ones. Hence thinking that the radical difference between the two was something cultural -- perhaps better communication (final refinements in language maybe?) -- rather than something drastic in their biology.

But like I say, I'll check in Klein; I've not gotten as far as the Neanderthal chapter yet .

DT

Daniel_AnglumTM

I think that although i think it unlikely that they invented the bow it could be that they used Cro-Magnon technology as they borrowed jewelry and possibly ritual

DMB

I looked at this thread today and a few hours later picked up last week's New Scientist, which had a short article about the supposed spear-using habits of Neanderthals.

Steven Churchill of Duke University and his colleagues Daniel Schmidt and William Hylander have done some research which is reported fully in the <a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=JournalURL&_issn=03054403&_auth=y&_acc t=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&m d5=68c957527a134837088747fa9d15217e" target="_blank">Journal of Archaeological Science, vol. 30, p. 103.</a>

They measured the humerus (upper arm) bones of Neanderthals and found that there was a big difference in cross section between the circumferences of the bones on the two arms of Neanderthals, suggestive of much greater stress on one arm than the other. The bones are thicker front to back than side to side. This suggests that the bones adapted to cope with an asymmetric force, and they argue that this is evidence that the Neanderthals did not throw spears, but rather thrust with them , using both arms and putting the major stress on the hindmost arm. They did tests on student volunteers thrusting a pole into a pad, and this showed that the forces on one arm were much greater than on the other and were consistent with the assymetric development found in the Neanderthal bones.

Apparently, later humans who used throwing spears also had greater development on the throwing arm, but the humeri were rounder, suggesting a different force distribution along the arm.