Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arken · 06-27-2003, 08:22 AM

Opera Nut,

I think it is fairly safe to say that jews are both an ethnicity/culture and a religion. Most people wouldn't deny that Woody Allen was Jewish, yet he's been an outspoken atheist for his entire career. Theodore Herzl, the founder of the Zionist movement, was also an atheist.

In my college days, I took a class on 'American Jewish History' and we spent the first day attempting to define a Jew. The only definition we could come up with (and admittedly it isn't a good one) which fit pretty much everyone that the mainstream would consider to be a Jew was 'a Jew is someone who claims to be a Jew and everyone else agrees.'

As for Messianic Judaism, more than one Messianic Jew I have met was never Jewish in the first place but they 'converted' anyway.

Spaz · 06-27-2003, 08:38 AM

Gah, how did that ever become a nationality? I realize that people use it as one but that's stupid, you can't use a religious preference also as a nationality, that just makes it dumb and confusing. Hey, I'm a Jewish Satanist, I'm a Jewish Atheist, I'm a Jewish Muslim, I'm a Jewish Jew! That's just dumb, I'm of the opinion that people only hold on to it 1) Because socially people say "that guy's a Jew" by the way he looks/acts without actually knowing their religion therefore making it a nationality and stupid, and 2) To feel special.

lpetrich · 06-27-2003, 08:43 AM

I think that we have to distinguish between Judaism the religion and Judaism the ethnicity.

One can be a Jew by ethnicity and be a "Jew for Jesus". This may be what Magus55 has in mind.

But being a "Jew for Jesus" does not fit into Judaism the religion, however. Jesus Christ, like Bar Kochba and Sabbatai Zevi, did not quite make it as the Messiah -- he did not re-establish the Davidic dynasty. This may be what Opera Nut has in mind.

Kilgore Trout · 06-27-2003, 01:10 PM

Here is Deteronomy 13:1-6 key points are emphasized.

If prophets or those who divine by dreams appear among you and promise you omens or portents, 2 and the omens or the portents declared by them take place, and they say, "Let us follow other gods" (whom you have not known) "and let us serve them," 3 you must not heed the words of those prophets or those who divine by dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you indeed love the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 4 The LORD your God you shall follow, him alone you shall fear, his commandments you shall keep, his voice you shall obey, him you shall serve, and to him you shall hold fast. 5But those prophets or those who divine by dreams shall be put to death for having spoken treason against the LORD your God--who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery--to turn you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

EstherRose said:

Quote:

How exactly does this passage mean Jesus was a false prophet? He didn�t lead people to follow a false God. He led people to recognize the long awaited Messiah, the Son of God. The same God. He repeatedly told them to worship God, the God of Abraham.

It says following other gods which you have not known! Jesus was not known before as a god. Christians believe Jesus is god so Jesus is a new god which the Jews have not known.

It also talks about false prophets will turn you away from the way the lord commanded you to walk. So a prophet changing the law in any way is a false prophet. Jesus changed the law! He claims the law was "fulfilled" and therefore not needed. He said "nothing you can eat can make you unclean." There are many examples of Jesus changing how Jews were supposed to live that was different from what God commanded Moses.

You say he told people to worship the same god. Of course he said that. Any cult nowadays can claim the same thing! Say I claim to represent the Hebrew god and I tell people to sacrifice humans to god. That would make me a false prophet that wants you to worship a different god because the "real" god forbids human sacrifice. The god I represent wants human sacrifice so they are differnt gods. That is why if a prophet changes even small parts of the law he is a false prophet. God said the law would never change.

Jews, Christians and Muslims all "claim" to follow the same god. Since they all follow ways that are differnt from what god commanded Moses, they do not follow the same god.

The same goes with Paul. He easily qualifies as a false prophet under Deut. 13 because he clearly says circumcision is not needed anymore even though god said men were to be circumcised FOREVER. Paul said the same about the whole Jewish law. He thought it was over.

Mageth · 06-27-2003, 06:17 PM

So if being Jewish is racial, then why are there black Jews in Ethiopia??

Actually, I saw a fascinating Nova program on this where a guy named Tudor Parfitt actually genetically (and historically, through legend) traced the African Jews (the Lemba tribe, anyway) back to some ethnic Jews that apparently migrated to Africa from the Arabian peninsula (Yemen) several hundred years ago and intermarried with the Africans.

Link

Opera Nut · 06-27-2003, 07:07 PM

You didn't understand anything I posted about the prophecies of the Old Testament, did you?

That's what REAL JEWS use as their Bible (The Pentateuch part of it) and nothing else (NOTHING ELSE, NO NEW TESTAMENT) as Scripture. The rest, such as the Talmud, are merely commentary on the law.

Messianic Jews are STILL an oxymoron, and you are using unclear thinking to justify it. Just call yourself a Christian and get it over with instead of being dishonest and a disgrace to Real Jewish Traditions, will ya?

Calzaer · 06-27-2003, 10:07 PM

Quote:

I'm anxiously awaiting some support for your 3-4 million claim, Magus.

Don't hold your breath. He apparently has a serious problem with actual numbers (like the date of the Flood, for instance).

Opera Nut · 06-30-2003, 09:57 AM

Calzaer, we still haven't gotten any answers for our questions, have we???

Chapter 9,265,644,378.9065504 of the usual path of unanswered questions from theists.

Soul Invictus · 06-30-2003, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kilgore Trout
Jesus taught things that were against the Hebrew god's law. That made him a false prophet.

Jesus said in Matthew 23:1-3 that people must obey and follow the orders of the teachers of the law. The teachers of the law said Jesus was a false prophet, therefore even Jesus is indirectly admitting he is a false prophet!

When you disregard the Hebrew god's law and worship false gods you are not a Jew.

I was not aware of this. I am familiar with a few of Paul's teachings that contradict the OT however I wasn't familiar with Jesus. Would you have a few examples?

Soul Invictus · 06-30-2003, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Judaism is both a nationality and a religion. You can convert to Judaism and by Jewish law, be considered a Jew, but you can't become of Jewish nationality or "ethnicity" without being born into it, no more than a European can be a true Native America without being born one.

I have qualms with the concept of Judaism being a nationality. Israeli,Israelite -yes. Jew? Not so sure. If so, what identifiable land mass is commonly associated or attributed to Jews (following the examples of the Chinese with China and Egyptians in Egypt, a part of Africa?)

Jewland?

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06-27-2003, 08:22 AM	#21
Arken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 6,303	Opera Nut, I think it is fairly safe to say that jews are both an ethnicity/culture and a religion. Most people wouldn't deny that Woody Allen was Jewish, yet he's been an outspoken atheist for his entire career. Theodore Herzl, the founder of the Zionist movement, was also an atheist. In my college days, I took a class on 'American Jewish History' and we spent the first day attempting to define a Jew. The only definition we could come up with (and admittedly it isn't a good one) which fit pretty much everyone that the mainstream would consider to be a Jew was 'a Jew is someone who claims to be a Jew and everyone else agrees.' As for Messianic Judaism, more than one Messianic Jew I have met was never Jewish in the first place but they 'converted' anyway.

06-27-2003, 08:38 AM	#22
Spaz Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 6th Circle of Hell Posts: 1,093	Gah, how did that ever become a nationality? I realize that people use it as one but that's stupid, you can't use a religious preference also as a nationality, that just makes it dumb and confusing. Hey, I'm a Jewish Satanist, I'm a Jewish Atheist, I'm a Jewish Muslim, I'm a Jewish Jew! That's just dumb, I'm of the opinion that people only hold on to it 1) Because socially people say "that guy's a Jew" by the way he looks/acts without actually knowing their religion therefore making it a nationality and stupid, and 2) To feel special.

06-27-2003, 08:43 AM	#23
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I think that we have to distinguish between Judaism the religion and Judaism the ethnicity. One can be a Jew by ethnicity and be a "Jew for Jesus". This may be what Magus55 has in mind. But being a "Jew for Jesus" does not fit into Judaism the religion, however. Jesus Christ, like Bar Kochba and Sabbatai Zevi, did not quite make it as the Messiah -- he did not re-establish the Davidic dynasty. This may be what Opera Nut has in mind.

06-27-2003, 06:17 PM	#25
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	So if being Jewish is racial, then why are there black Jews in Ethiopia?? Actually, I saw a fascinating Nova program on this where a guy named Tudor Parfitt actually genetically (and historically, through legend) traced the African Jews (the Lemba tribe, anyway) back to some ethnic Jews that apparently migrated to Africa from the Arabian peninsula (Yemen) several hundred years ago and intermarried with the Africans. Link

06-27-2003, 07:07 PM	#26
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	You didn't understand anything I posted about the prophecies of the Old Testament, did you? That's what REAL JEWS use as their Bible (The Pentateuch part of it) and nothing else (NOTHING ELSE, NO NEW TESTAMENT) as Scripture. The rest, such as the Talmud, are merely commentary on the law. Messianic Jews are STILL an oxymoron, and you are using unclear thinking to justify it. Just call yourself a Christian and get it over with instead of being dishonest and a disgrace to Real Jewish Traditions, will ya?

06-30-2003, 09:57 AM	#28
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Calzaer, we still haven't gotten any answers for our questions, have we??? Chapter 9,265,644,378.9065504 of the usual path of unanswered questions from theists.

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