Freethought & Rationalism Archive

christ-on-a-stick · 09-12-2002, 01:58 PM

"Still awaiting vague OT references"?

Sorry, RJS, I guess I just assumed that as a Christian you'd be THOROUGHLY familiar with the Bible you believe to be the inspired word of God!

In the book of Deuteronomy ALONE:

"The Lord destroyed them before them" -- the general treatment of the people who were supposedly displaced by the Israelites. 2:21-22

At God's instructions, the Israelites "utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones" leaving "none to remain." 2:33-36

Again the Israelites kill everyone: "men, women, and children, of every city." 3:3,6

God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. 7:2

God commands his people to "consume all the people which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity on them." 7:16

If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." 13:6-10

If you hear of a city where another god is worshiped, then destroy everyone in the city (even the cattle) and burn it down. 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. 17:2-7

Anyone who will not listen to a priest or a judge must be executed. 17:12-13

God travels with people and fights in their wars. 20:4

In the cities that god "delivers into thine hands" you must kill all the males (including old men, boys, and babies) with "the edge of the sword .... But the women ... shalt thou take unto yourself." 20:13

"But of the cities ... which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, infants, toddlers, and babies. 20:16

Would you like more? Are these examples of the Bible-God's homicidal mania too vague for you?!?!?!?

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: christ-on-a-stick ]

Femme Savante · 09-12-2002, 02:02 PM

Family Man wrote :

Quote:

I do not know that the original poster lacks compassion for Mrs. Beamer's situation or not. There is nothing in that post that justifies that inference. Nor was there any justification for your inference that he doesn't appreciate the efforts Todd Beamer made on the plane. His post was about the rather disgusting view she promoted and nothing more. I can understand your offense, but your reaction was off the point.
And he didn't say she was as bad as the hijackers. He said her thinking was as bad as the hijackers. There is a considerable difference between the two positions, and another unreasonable inference of yours.

And I, and everyone else, has the right to read anything we want, including things we disagree with. We are also free to criticize that which we disagree with. As are you. But at least address the point.

For some reason, thes remarks and others in this debate resonate with something I read in Pascal Boyer's book And Man Created the Gods :

Quote:

One often hesitates between two ways of explaining the existence of these organized groups which seem ready to show of violence (or heroism, according to the side where one places oneself) to oblige the community to find more orthodox religious attitudes. On one side, one is tempted to think that . . . fundamentalism is only one excessive form of adhesion, a caricature of ordinary religious behavior. It is a topic which one often finds in the reactions of the liberal West concerning islamic extremists : the religious leaders and their partisans are simply "more Moslem" than the others, a point of view which tallies well with the old Western antipathy for Islam. And which tallies well, also, with our usual notion of religious identity. If supernatural concepts naturally create powerful emotional links between people, one may conceive that a deeper investment in these concepts can lead to extremist behavior.

The second interpretation, quite as widespread though opposed to the first, it is that religious extremism has nothing to do with religion. Thus, fundamentalism would be only one daring attempt to take the control of the company, on behalf of small groups which would thus gain the power and the prestige which they lack. This thesis is often advanced by the nationals of the countries where this kind of groups acts. The Moslem intellectuals, for example, say that the fundamentalist movements are not that a caricature of a more authentic, more noble and more generous Islam (they can mention in support of this thesis quantity of koranic sources). In the same way, as many Christians, Jews and Hindus are horrified that one can assimilate their religion with the fanatic Protestant movements, the ultra-orthodoxe rabbis or the flamers of mosques in India.

It seems to to me that neither one nor the other of these two interpretations make it possible to explain what these movements have for their adepts. On the one hand, even if fundamentalism were only one extreme form of religious conviction, that would not inform us about the reasons which push certain people, in some circumstances, to adopt this particular version of their religious tradition. On the other side, the idea that only the seizure of power interests the fundamentalist does not explain why they are caught this particularly dangerous manner, expensive and often ineffective. These movements relate to indeed the religion and the will to power but to describe them as "fanatics" is to elude the question of knowing what pushes people to violence and does not say anything either on the power that these people seek or why violence would be the only way of obtaining it.
"Et l'Homme Cr�a les Dieux", p. 287-288.

In short, Boyer (an anthropologist and director of research at the Institut des Sciences de l'Homme of the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, Lyon, France) sees the same difficulty : when one examines fundamentalism, it is nearly impossible to separate religion from politics.

M.L.

RJS · 09-12-2002, 02:09 PM

C-on-a-stick

Thank you for reciting all of these. Yes I am familiar. Your prior descriptions were vague, you would agree - but you appear upset.

You have obviously had this conversation before and received inaqequate answers (which you have already deemed "bullshit") So lets save the bandwidth.

christ-on-a-stick · 09-12-2002, 02:15 PM

RJS -

Quote:

For whatever reason, you choose not to accept my first honest answer.

NO, I choose not to accept your first, *contradictory* answer - you claim that God "wouldn't ask you to do it", when in fact the Bible clearly shows that God *has asked* humans to do exactly that, and at no point states that he would never do so again. Why do you refuse to address this inconsistency?

And I suspect it would be a moot point to ask you if you *would* sell your belongings, go be a missionary, yadda yadda yadda, because I don't think you ever WILL hear that, for 2 reasons: A) there's no one talking, and B) people only hear what they WANT to hear, even from their imaginary friends.

Evil Milkman · 09-12-2002, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:

I do not expect God to command me to do something that is inconsistent with His teachings. Hijacking a plane and killing non-believers would be inconsistent. (I'll await your vague OT references)

Hi all, I'm new to posting on these boards but I thought I'd start here.

For Old Testament references on God killing or commanding others to kill people and innocents (including children and the unborn), there are a few to say the least.
Genesis 7:2-3 [the Flood myth, everything that breathes air dies, including innocent baby children and fetuses]
Genesis 19:24 [the Sodom and Gomorrah story that we've all come to know and laugh about]
Numbers 15:32 [a man is found guilty of picking up sticks on the Sabbath and is executed by Moses and gang, God commanding, of course]
Numbers 33:4 [God likes to kill innocent babies, I guess]
Hosea 13:6 [Because the Samaritans chose to worship another deity, God promises to dash their infants to pieces and their "women with child shall be ripped up." Praise God, indeed]

I would hardly call these "vague". If this God of the "Holy Bible" exists, he's not worthy of our praise.

The list goes on and on. These are just a few of the Jealous God fables in the Bible, but there are many, many more examples. I hope this was on the topic relating to your question.

<a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com" target="_blank">Skeptics Annotated Bible (King James Version)</a>

Have a good day!

Javaman · 09-12-2002, 03:07 PM

Welcome, Evil Milkman.

If you feel like it, you can give a big, happy greeting in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=43&SUBMIT=Go" target="_blank">the welcome section.</a>

Family Man · 09-12-2002, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:


Boy, call me silly for making that inference.

[ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]

Quote:

How the fuck is her thinking ANY DIFFERENT from the hijackers???

Actually, I'd call it incompetent rather than silly. I could think of dozens of ways to criticize that statement legitimately, and you pick the inference you can't make.

Family Man · 09-12-2002, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
So lets say you own a gun for hunting purposes only, with the possibility that you could use it for protection if you had to.

Then one day a criminal guns down and kills your kids at the local grocery store.

Then on the anniversary of your child's death I come along and TO YOUR FACEsay that because you own a gun your thinking is just as bad as the guy that blew your kids head off. And I use a few explicatives for effect.

I assume given your high intelligence and ability to think theoretically you could discern that I may in fact have compassion for you, and I am really just a gun control freak. Or would you hit me?

First, he didn't say it to her face. Secondly, in your scenario, I didn't say anything offensive. Your attack was entirely gratuitous. As I said, I think he could have been legitimately criticized for some of the things he said in his post. So far, I haven't seen it from you.

Family Man · 09-12-2002, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RJS:
Believing that the wage of sin is death (death in an eternal context, btw) and believing one should kill members of a different race, religion, or nationality are fundamentally different. For you to link the two is disingenuous.

Now you've hit on legitimate criticism. It's about time.

christ-on-a-stick · 09-12-2002, 03:29 PM

SHE! I'm a she!!!! Whew... sorry, had to get that out!

09-12-2002, 01:58 PM	#51
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	"Still awaiting vague OT references"? Sorry, RJS, I guess I just assumed that as a Christian you'd be THOROUGHLY familiar with the Bible you believe to be the inspired word of God! In the book of Deuteronomy ALONE: "The Lord destroyed them before them" -- the general treatment of the people who were supposedly displaced by the Israelites. 2:21-22 At God's instructions, the Israelites "utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones" leaving "none to remain." 2:33-36 Again the Israelites kill everyone: "men, women, and children, of every city." 3:3,6 God instructs the Israelites to kill, without mercy, all the inhabitants (strangers) of the land that they conquer. 7:2 God commands his people to "consume all the people which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity on them." 7:16 If your brother, son, daughter, wife, or friend tries to get you to worship another god, "thou shalt surely kill him, thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death." 13:6-10 If you hear of a city where another god is worshiped, then destroy everyone in the city (even the cattle) and burn it down. 13:12-16 Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. 17:2-7 Anyone who will not listen to a priest or a judge must be executed. 17:12-13 God travels with people and fights in their wars. 20:4 In the cities that god "delivers into thine hands" you must kill all the males (including old men, boys, and babies) with "the edge of the sword .... But the women ... shalt thou take unto yourself." 20:13 "But of the cities ... which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth." Kill the old men and women, the sick and the dying, the blind and the lame, pregnant mothers, nursing mothers, infants, toddlers, and babies. 20:16 Would you like more? Are these examples of the Bible-God's homicidal mania too vague for you?!?!?!? [ September 12, 2002: Message edited by: christ-on-a-stick ]</p>

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09-12-2002, 02:09 PM	#53
RJS Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 303	C-on-a-stick Thank you for reciting all of these. Yes I am familiar. Your prior descriptions were vague, you would agree - but you appear upset. You have obviously had this conversation before and received inaqequate answers (which you have already deemed "bullshit") So lets save the bandwidth.

09-12-2002, 03:07 PM	#56
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	Welcome, Evil Milkman. If you feel like it, you can give a big, happy greeting in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=43&SUBMIT=Go" target="_blank">the welcome section.</a>

09-12-2002, 03:29 PM	#60
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	SHE! I'm a she!!!! Whew... sorry, had to get that out!

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