babelfish

Douglas, a few days ago, <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=001716&p=8" target="_blank">in this thread on the MD forum</a> you said:

quote:

God created the world without suffering, evil, or death.

So Adam & Eve and all the velociraptors, lions, sharks, and eagles ate fruit, (being careful to plant all the seeds so that no embryonic plants would be killed before they got a chance to live).


quote:

God gave Adam and Eve "dominion" over the world, and the world (the Earth and all "within" it) became subject to their authority.


And He gave Adam "dominion" over Eve and later on got really P.O.'d when he couldn't control his wife.


quote:

When they submitted their authority to Satan (effectively), and corrupted their purity by sinning, they gave the dominion of the Earth over to Satan (effectively).

And God stood by, seemingly helplessly, as all the creatures he so lovingly formed (Satan included) spun wildly out of control, because..... (a) he was feeling quite vindictive that day, due to PCS (post-creation syndrome); (b) he isn't really all-powerful (but he doesn't want anyone to know); (c) he is really evil (but he doesn't want anyone to know)

quote:

Because of their sin, the Earth was cursed "for their sake", probably because this was due punishment for them. Also, the suffering of innocent animals would be an object lesson for humanity, pointing to their own lack of innocence.

Things got worse and worse. The sharks, who had previously been satisfied with nibbling on seaweed, started attacking helpless little herrings. The lions, suddenly inexplicably dissatisfied with a diet of nuts and berries, started attacking the surprised and helpless antelopes they had previously considered their friends. Oh it was horrible. A&E looked on, appalled and guilty, until they decided to try just a teeny bite of that tasty-looking meat, and well, before very long at all, God himself got quite bloodthirsty and started requiring animal sacrifices in great quantities.


quote:

Necessary, but not God's desire;

Really? You could have fooled me.


quote:

redeemable, since the Bible says that the Earth was subjected to futility, not "willingly", but it will be delivered from the "bondage of corruption". Sin has consequences more severe than a "time-out", and causes the innocent to suffer, until God puts a stop to it, which He will do.


Blah, blah, blah. So, after a long and protracted punishment, God will go ahead and change the world back to the way it should have been in the first place. I just wonder, if he has the power to do this, why didn't he do it right the first time? And if, in the new and improved kingdom, someone should use their free will to sin, is it going to be back to the old drawing board again?


quote:


In Christ,

Douglas

Yeah, yeah, whatever.

MrDarwin

I already tried to ask Douglas about it in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001334" target="_blank">this thread</a> but he ignored it.

Walter_Mitty

To add:

And of course Satan, who was in heaven prior to all of this, apparently had free will when he was the lead angel. This begs the question of will the Christians who go to heaven still have free will?

If so, what's to prevent them (or any other angels, saints, etc.) from starting another war in heaven?

agapeo

I see no indication that we (Christians) would not. Besides, we're all looking forward to going anyways.
That's a possibility. However, the question is not addressed from a Biblical standpoint because evidently whereas Satan didn't have a choice in his creation and subsequent tenure in heaven, we do. So our (Christian) entrance into heaven is something we wish to have. Could we change our minds after getting there? Perhaps. I'll have to wait and see.

The Other Michael

babelfish, don't you think you are being a bit harsh in your subject line, blaming Douglas for the presence of evil in the world?

I'm sure it's really the fault of the roof demons.

cheers,
Michael

Janaya

I've wondered about this myself. People/souls would have to chose. They couldn't afford to be on the losing side. But assuming it happened, would the losers have to be incarcerated in a new hell? Would the population in hell become so bloated that they could overrun heaven by sheer numbers?

Ahhh...the pile of dung which is the christian religion.

Peace,
Janaya

Kosh

And, along those lines? Here's a guy (Satan) who knew full well the "Glory of the Lord". He could see first hand how "beautiful" God was, how incredible heaven was, and he still chose to revolt? Not a good marketing technique on the virtues of heaven. Maybe he was in the ghetto part?

WHAT IS IT THEY'RE NOT TELLING US ABOUT HEAVEN?

MrDarwin

What they're not telling us is that God either didn't foresee Satan's rebellion, or foresaw it and went ahead and made the creature anyway, knowing full well the trouble it would cause. Also that God wasn't able to (or didn't want to) make a world that wouldn't go horribly wrong within a few days of its creation.

What it really boils down to is whether God can do anything that has unintended consequences. I've found Christians to be very slippery on this question.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

agapeo

Yeah, really! Ain't it something how all the big named "stars" want top billing.
Oh, I don't know. Did ya hear that George Carlin will be doing his stand-up routine at the Cafe Bliss?

babelfish

I know, Mr D, and I copied my OP from that thread for the very reason that I hate being ignored.