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Old 12-04-2001, 06:39 AM   #71
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Hey buttercup, you really sound like a nice person, and I don't want to be hard on you because I was once a strong believer and apologist that spent most of my free time amongst people such as yourself. As you know, the Bible implores us to do this, because it is the most successful method for perpetuating the Christian philosophy and myth from generation to generation (ie; cut out the contrarian world and its philosophies). It is also the surest way to elevate it to reality. No one wants to be chastised and shunned by their community of friends and family, regardless of the evidence against what they believe.

Anyway, I just read this book review here at the web, and it made me think of you and your posts. You may want to consider getting a copy to read and share your opinions with us.

<a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=154" target="_blank">Book of the Month</a>

Being as you are a student....I am assuming you are not afraid to learn new things or examine a different view of the world??

[ December 04, 2001: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>
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Old 12-04-2001, 11:19 AM   #72
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Bumping this as I really want an answer of Lone Wolf's questions. Anxios to see what the mysterious outside source came up with
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Old 12-04-2001, 04:33 PM   #73
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"Why do you build me up (build me up) Buttercup, baby
Just to let me down (let me down) and mess me around
And then worst of all (worst of all) you never call, baby
When you say you will (say you will) but I love you still
I need you (I need you) more than anyone, darlin'
You know that I have from the start
So build me up (build me up) Buttercup, don't break my heart"


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Old 12-04-2001, 06:15 PM   #74
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I am so sorry that it took me so long to type up this response, and I know I sound redundant throughout it, but please bear with me. I am only a student and am very young in my faith.

"You shall not murder"?

Genesis 7:20-23 - Nearly all life, including pregnant women, innocent children, and animals sentenced to death by means of catastrophic flood.
~ This happened because the people had sinned and commited evils. God's heart was grevied and in pain because of this, but Noah found favor with him and because of this, he and his family lived.

Exodus 9:8-11,25 - Tortured the Egyptians with disease because a pharaoh refused to let the Israelites leave.
~ A little tiny thing called sin. The Egyptians were given many many chances to let the Israelites go, and pharaoh refused. Because of this Gods judgement came upon them.


Exodus 12:29-30 - Passover execution of Egyptian babies.
~Like above- God's judgement.

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 - Extermination of men, women, and children of seven nations (then steal their land).
~ The Israelites were Gods chosen people. And it was also a war.

II Samuel 12:13-18 - As punishment for David's adultery with Bathsheba, kill David's baby.
~ Because David sinned with Bathsheba, his son was killed as a result of that sin.

Romans 3:24-25 - Torture and murder of his own son.
~ Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. He was sacrificed so that others might live. Jesus rose from the dead- don't forget that. He rose to conquer death.

I Samuel 15:3 - "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
~ Israelites were Gods chosen people, and this war was given to them. There is a time for mercy, and a time for judgement.

Hosea 13:16 - "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
~Notice the "for she hath rebelled against her God". She rebelled against God, and His judgement came down on her.

Deuteronomy 32:23-25 - "I will spend mine arrows upon them. . . . The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs."
~They sinned and angered God, and his judgement was brought on them.

In other words, it's ok for the big guy to be a murdering psychopath, but not for us lab rats?

psychopath: "a mentally ill or unstable person "
God is not mentally ill or unstable. So therefore he isn't a psychopath.
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Old 12-04-2001, 06:21 PM   #75
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Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about pyschopaths, socialpaths, serial killers, serial rapists et al, some of them are termed as mentally ill as well. Does that mean they will go to heaven also ?
Wow what a lively bunch we will have together in heaven !

BTW If a serial killer decided to kill me in heaven do I,
1) go to hell
2) get reincarnated
3) get repeatedly killed & resurrect, killed & resurrect by the killer again & again in heaven at the "crime scene"
4) I can't die, so that asshole just keep stabbing at me ?
I am not sure about the "mentally-ill-too-young-get-out-of-hell-free" clause, but you wouldnt be killed in heaven.

And I dont remember who asked, but it was something like, "So if I steal a pack of gum I'm going to hell?" And my response is its not the theft that puts you in hell, though it doesnt help. The major sin that puts you in hell is ignoring God and Jesus Christ and saying that they dont exist, etc.
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Old 12-04-2001, 06:32 PM   #76
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JohnClay:

Quote:
1 Timothy 2:8-15:


quote:
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I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women [or she] will be saved [or restored] through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Corinthians 14:33-35:


quote:
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For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just wondering what you think of Paul now? Is he always right?
I think that since its in the Bible, it is right. Yes, women should be in submission.
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Old 12-04-2001, 08:05 PM   #77
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Thanks for the reply, Buttercup. Let's see...

Quote:
Genesis 7:20-23 - Nearly all life, including pregnant women, innocent children, and animals sentenced to death by means of catastrophic flood.
<strong>~ This happened because the people had sinned and commited evils. God's heart was grevied and in pain because of this, but Noah found favor with him and because of this, he and his family lived.</strong>
So, every man, woman, child, and animal had "sinned"? Or just certain ones - yet all were sentenced to death? Why? Was it just too big a chore to sort them all out? And if this god guy is so perfect, why did his creations have so many flaws... so many that they all had to be exterminated so he could start over?

Quote:
Exodus 9:8-11,25 - Tortured the Egyptians with disease because a pharaoh refused to let the Israelites leave.
<strong>~ A little tiny thing called sin. The Egyptians were given many many chances to let the Israelites go, and pharaoh refused. Because of this Gods judgement came upon them.</strong>
I know the story, but how can anyone justify torturing all Egyptians for the ideology of one Pharaoh, especially when an all-powerful being would have so many other options?

Quote:
Exodus 12:29-30 - Passover execution of Egyptian babies.
<strong>~Like above- God's judgement.</strong>
And you have no problem worshipping a god who executes babies? Let's also not forget the original topic, Buttercup - that what is considered a "sin" is the very stuff that is apparently ok for god to get away with.

Quote:
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 - Extermination of men, women, and children of seven nations (then steal their land).
<strong>~ The Israelites were Gods chosen people. And it was also a war.</strong>
His "chosen people"? What about the slaughtered folks? Were they not god's creations too? And if this is how he operates, why isn't everyone on the West Bank being exterminated right now?

Quote:
II Samuel 12:13-18 - As punishment for David's adultery with Bathsheba, kill David's baby.
<strong>~ Because David sinned with Bathsheba, his son was killed as a result of that sin.</strong>
Explain to me how this is just? And by this logic all adultery today should be punished by killing the offender's children, right? Or would that be a "sin"?

Quote:
Romans 3:24-25 - Torture and murder of his own son.
<strong>~ Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. He was sacrificed so that others might live. Jesus rose from the dead- don't forget that. He rose to conquer death.</strong>
So, god impregnates an unmarried virgin (sin), then kills his own son (or allows it to happen - still a sin), and as I said before... it's ok for god to do these wacky things (even though he's all-powerful and can choose easier ways to do things) - yet for us they're "sins"? He sounds like a pretty lousy role model / leader to me.

Quote:
I Samuel 15:3 - "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
<strong>~ Israelites were Gods chosen people, and this war was given to them. There is a time for mercy, and a time for judgement.</strong>
Again with the chosen ones, huh? Sorry, Buttercup, but slaughtering infants and camels as some sort of justice in god's name is demented. It's ok to murder at god's hand, but wrong for us?

Quote:
Hosea 13:16 - "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."
<strong>~Notice the "for she hath rebelled against her God". She rebelled against God, and His judgement came down on her.</strong>
And this judgement includes "infants dashed in pieces" and "ripped up women with child"? Again we have unjustified murder.

Quote:
Deuteronomy 32:23-25 - "I will spend mine arrows upon them. . . . The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs."
<strong>~They sinned and angered God, and his judgement was brought on them.</strong>
Then if someone pisses me off, I can go out and destroy virgins and old men? Or is this behavior reserved just for the big guy? What? That would be a "sin"? Hmmm... that's why I stated in my first post that he can't even follow his own rules.

Quote:
In other words, it's ok for the big guy to be a murdering psychopath, but not for us lab rats?
<strong>psychopath: "a mentally ill or unstable person "
God is not mentally ill or unstable. So therefore he isn't a psychopath.</strong>
Oh, I think the evidence is overwhelming in favor of being an unstable lunatic. Tell me this, if any of us earthbound folks pulled even one of the stunts listed above, would you think there was anything sane going on?

I understand what you're trying to say, Buttercup, in that you're attempting to justify your god's actions. However - the fact remains that these are horrible acts, sins even. Actually, you've admitted that he commited these "sins"... and thus my original statement about god, sin, and the double standard that remains...
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Old 12-05-2001, 11:32 AM   #78
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buttercup,
Please do me a favor and copy and paste all your wonderful bible information into the "Rants, Raves, Preaching etc." forum.

Maybe you can save some of us..
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Old 12-05-2001, 04:22 PM   #79
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Seconded! Please come to the RRP forum, buttercup; we will give you a very warm welcome there.
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Old 12-05-2001, 04:27 PM   #80
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Originally posted by buttercup:
<strong>JohnClay:

I think that since its in the Bible, it is right. Yes, women should be in submission.</strong>

But since you're still here, buttercup, in light of the above statement, what should a woman do in a marriage where her husband abuses her? If he wants her to stay in the marriage, should she submit to his wishes and remain there?

If your answer to that question is "no", could you describe what kind of abuse justifies a woman leaving her husband? How bad does it have to be before you can go against the bible? Or should you obey the bible and prepare to die?
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