Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Metacrock · 05-01-2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mark9950
In many passages the bible describes the earth was flat.Many people claim that was a problem because there was no hebrew word for sphere so they had to use circle.

Even though there is no hebrew word for sphere there is a hebrew word for ball,the word is dure:ball,turn, round bout.

This word is only used once in Isiah 22:18 according to strongs concordance

This word would be best suited to describe the sphereical nature of the earth if those ancient peoples believed GOD created the earth spherical and not flat.

But as we know that the bible is Gods word the earth is flat and galileo is wrong and those NASA pictures were doctored for an anti-God agenda by the communists to make God look like a liar.LOL

OK tell me something. This morning it was cloudy, and now it's sunny. How do you explain that? Can you tell me how that works?

I'm serliously looking for an answer here.

mike_decock · 05-02-2003, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
The Bible does not imply a flat Earth.

You seem to think you are the first ones analyzing the Bible to the finest detail. Millions of people have studied the Bible, language, rhetoric, ancient grammar, theology etc. etc for centuries. Its not like this hasn't been brought up before, and the argument still doesn't hold much weight even after all the studying.

The bible does imply a flat earth. If it didn't, all those people who studied the bible, language, rhetoric, ancient grammar, theology, etc. for centuries would not have persecuted those who suggested that the earth was spherical.

-Mike...

CJD · 05-02-2003, 08:04 AM

Now, I agree with you Mike. And I think that they were wrong for persecuting people for their scientific views, which also says that I think they were wrong in their views on how science relates to the bible and theology. Many of them acted as if one's scientific views are essential elements of faith and practice, that if they held views considered unorthodox by the majority, then those views challenged the non-negotiables of the faith. They were wrong about that, as it clouds the life-saving theology of Scripture. This is what I have been arguing all along.

Regards,

malookiemaloo · 05-02-2003, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike_decock
The bible does imply a flat earth. If it didn't, all those people who studied the bible, language, rhetoric, ancient grammar, theology, etc. for centuries would not have persecuted those who suggested that the earth was spherical.

-Mike...

What you say here is quite wrong.

I do not know whether the Bible teaches a flat earth or not but people tend to be persecuted for maintaining that the Bible is RIGHT, although usually by those who should and do know better.

m

Metacrock · 05-02-2003, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike_decock
The bible does imply a flat earth. If it didn't, all those people who studied the bible, language, rhetoric, ancient grammar, theology, etc. for centuries would not have persecuted those who suggested that the earth was spherical.

-Mike...

Who was persecuted? Can you give me names, dates, and detials of their persecution, other than the one famous example? I find that atheists always make these bold assertions, religion was holding back science. No, it wasn't! And there was hardly any persecution of science, and the world wasn't bursting with budding young scientists int he middle ages,who were always getting burned because they weighed the same as a duck.

Moreover, that argument doesn't make sense, because some people could have thought the Bible taught a flat earth when it really doesn't, because they didn't know what shape the earth was so they assumed it was flat. they then had to assume the Bbile taught it was flat, because the Bible couldn't be wrong. They just read it that way.

Now, you didn't take my bait.I asked how it could be sunny when the day began as cloudy. You were suppossed to say "the sun came out." Now isn't that something you would say? Don't you refur to it as "coming out?" but you do know better right?

When it speaks of the "four corner of the earth" it isn't speaking litterally!

and why does the Bible have to have scienctific facts to be true theolgoically?

Jack the Bodiless · 05-02-2003, 08:35 AM

It is accepted as historical fact that the ancient Hebrews were flat-Earthers. That is what all those who have studied ancient Hebrew writings have concluded, with the exception of a handful with a deep vested interest in wishing to believe otherwise.

Every relevant verse in the Bible refers to the worldview of a flat Earth surmounted by a solid dome to which the stars were attached. There are no verses whatsoever that teach round-Earthism or heliocentrism, or that the stars are distant.

To deny the flat-Earthism of the Bible's authors is foolishness.

mike_decock · 05-02-2003, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Metacrock
Who was persecuted? Can you give me names, dates, and detials of their persecution, other than the one famous example?

Sorry, persecution was too strong of a word for the point I was trying to make.

Here's a few examples of the theological arguments for a flat earth:

St. Lactantius condemning the idea of a spherical earth: (Divine Institutions, Book III)

Quote:

I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another; but that I sometimes imagine that they either discuss philosophy for the sake of a jest, or purposely and knowingly undertake to defend falsehoods, as if to exercise or display their talents on false subjects. But I should be able to prove by many arguments that it is impossible for the heaven to be lower than the earth, were is not that this book must now be concluded, and that some things still remain, which are more necessary for the present work.

Cosmas arguing that Heaven and Earth cannot be understood as a sphere: Christian Topography

Quote:

This is the first heaven, shaped like a vaulted chamber, which was created on the first day along with the earth, and of it, Isaiah speaks thus: He that hath established the heaven as a vaulted chamber. But the heaven, which is bound to the first at the middle, is that which was created on the second day, to which Isaiah refers when he says: And having stretched it out as a tent to dwell in. David also said concerning it: Stretching out the heaven as a curtain, and indicating it still more clearly he says: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters. Now, when scripture speaks of the extremities of heaven and earth, this can not be understood as applicable to a sphere.

The notion of a spherical earth was unorthodox or heretical:

Virgil or Fergil (8th c., Irish ecclesiastic)
Threatened with expulsion from Church for teaching of spherical Earth.

Galileo, of course.

Quote:

When it speaks of the "four corner of the earth" it isn't speaking litterally!

Why do you assume that?

Quote:

and why does the Bible have to have scienctific facts to be true theolgoically?

Credibility.

-Mike...

Skeptical · 05-02-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
The Bible does not imply a flat Earth. You haven't presented any evidence that it has whatsoever. You think reference to circle automatically means flat? Um yeah whatever. One reason dure probably wasn't used is because it is ambiguous. We call a football a ball, yet its clearly not a sphere. And second of all, the Earth isn't actually a perfect sphere - its slightly elliptical from gravity pulling it. Dure could be confusing depending on who reads it - a circle is a circle is a circle - its round no matter what.

Your argument for a flat Earth is poor at best. You seem to think you are the first ones analyzing the Bible to the finest detail. Millions of people have studied the Bible, language, rhetoric, ancient grammar, theology etc. etc for centuries. Its not like this hasn't been brought up before, and the argument still doesn't hold much weight even after all the studying.

You really should try doing the tiniest amount of research before making obviously erroneous statements. A flat-earth _is_ biblical, here are just a few references that I found with a 30 second search on google:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/...q=4&fldAuto=61

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../004round.html

(the first link is the most complete, the others I included just to show how easy it is to find information if one chooses to look)

Sci_Fidelity · 05-02-2003, 04:46 PM

Posted by Magus55:

Quote:

The Bible does not imply a flat Earth. You haven't presented any evidence that it has whatsoever. You think reference to circle automatically means flat? Um yeah whatever.

Then why does the flat earth society base its belief on a strict reading of scripture?

Posted by Meta:

Quote:

and why does the Bible have to have scienctific facts to be true theolgoically?

Because it was supposedly inspired by the creator of the universe.

Sci_Fidelity · 05-05-2003, 09:33 AM

For some reason, I seem to be a thread killer lately. Oh well, I'm going to try and revive this one with the following passage:

Daniel 4:11

Quote:

The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

I don't think this one is typically referenced, but I could be wrong. Aside from the absurdity of the height, it is obvious nothing is visible "to the end on all the earth" How can this not imply a flat earth? Magus???

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05-02-2003, 08:04 AM	#33
CJD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: greater Orlando area Posts: 832	Now, I agree with you Mike. And I think that they were wrong for persecuting people for their scientific views, which also says that I think they were wrong in their views on how science relates to the bible and theology. Many of them acted as if one's scientific views are essential elements of faith and practice, that if they held views considered unorthodox by the majority, then those views challenged the non-negotiables of the faith. They were wrong about that, as it clouds the life-saving theology of Scripture. This is what I have been arguing all along. Regards,

05-02-2003, 08:35 AM	#36
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	It is accepted as historical fact that the ancient Hebrews were flat-Earthers. That is what all those who have studied ancient Hebrew writings have concluded, with the exception of a handful with a deep vested interest in wishing to believe otherwise. Every relevant verse in the Bible refers to the worldview of a flat Earth surmounted by a solid dome to which the stars were attached. There are no verses whatsoever that teach round-Earthism or heliocentrism, or that the stars are distant. To deny the flat-Earthism of the Bible's authors is foolishness.

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