Claudia

I have 3 kids, which are now 10, 14 and 17.
I have never spanked them.
About smacking, I am against it, but I have been guilty of it. Never in a pedagogical intent, but always when they frightened me so much that I had that immediate reaction (->after they acted, never for prevention). Well they learned that they can go to far, and that they knew that I has been so frightened to act against my conviction was an (unintended) lesson for them. I am not specially proud of it, but they know that their mother is not perfect.
In the supermarket situation, to carry them under my arm as a parcel has always be sufficient to make them stop after a time.
I also some time given "false smacks". As the hand goes, but I retrieve my control before it arrives, and the result is a very soft touch on the cheek. Quite efficient to learn them that I am angry, and that I do not want to inflict any pain (as I don't).
For very young kids, they learn the word "no" very young, before being able to speak. If daid loud enough, surprise make them stop just long enough for me to arrive and remove them for the danger. And it is faster to say "no" than to hit the hand or buttock. And I have security electric cockets at home. When they are very young, the only solution is to watch them.
And my kids have always been very responsible (with the possibilities of their age, of course) and over all I had very few reasons to punish them, even non physically. But the loud "no" to give me time for removal from the danger, of course I needed it.

Oxymoron

No.

No. They should be taught how to deal with "errant" behaviour differently in parenting classes.

No. But then I've never had kids. However, my first is on the way (April 2003)

Sandslice

As one who has not-so-fond memories of the spank, and no recollection at all of my fourth year of existence, I would have to say no.

Mine was ten fierce spankshots straight to the ass for not pickin' up a semi-fossilised bee that I was gonna vacuum up instead. Go figure that; I try to do chores and get my ass painted purple instead. (Can I help it? I fear bugs, and physical contact with most other forms of life. The reason for that, though, is "detailed" below.)

As to the fourth year of existence, it was my mom's ex-in-laws (would those be out-laws? ) and something I cannot for the life of me remember. I couldn't even pray for it, even during my xian years, because god wouldn't listen either. It was pro'ly laughin' ITS ass off the whole time, whatever it was.

Dibble Helix

Personally I never hit my kids under any circumstances. I'm of the view that for an adult to strike a child is actually a form of 'abuse'. Think about it, you're much bigger than them and you're using violence to control them! How is that not abuse?

In answer to the points made about deflecting tiny children from potential danger I would say two things. Firstly parents have a duty (often ignored) to make a safe environment for their kids. A lot of dangers (but not all) can be easily averted by adults just planning a little better. Secondly, why would anyone think that hitting a child is the best way to protect them from sudden danger? It doesn't make sense to me.

I could rant about this for hours! [in fact I have on previous threads!] So I'll shut up!

Dibble.

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Dibble Helix ]</p>

Sabine Grant

Good morning Arrowman! Interestingly enough, the French word for spanking is " fessee" which defines the exact location where the spanking is to be administered. The word "fesse" designating the buttocks and never the legs or any other part of the body. Just to say that one can be applying a spanking without fitting your definition.

I saw that many comments interpret spanking as a mean to punish. However there is a difference between punishment and discipline. From discipline, there is the potential to learn and grow. From punishment, only a measure which sanctions anyone for an act of disobedience.

I think that spanking can be beneficial and not result in some traumatic experience if applied in the following fashion :

_ the child is being asked not to do something at least twice yet chooses to do it.As he is being presented with the consequences of his choice.

- the child is being set aside privatly and told how and why he broke the rules.

_ the spanking is then applied as two firm smacks on his buttocks without any body restrain.

- the child is then explained again why he was spanked and given a hug.

IMO spanking should never be along term mean of discipline. It should be a deterrent as any other mean of discipline for the child to be obedient to the parent.

If a child ends up with bruises on his buttock, it is obvious that the parent is being violent and abusive and that the measure has become a mean to punish over and over again. It cannot be effective.

Toddlers may not understand that the reason why they cannot play with their favorite toy or have ice cream is because they broke a rule. However by age 5 or so, other methods of discipline need to be used.

I do not believe it is reasonable to stereotype all parents who apply spanking as child abusers who use their physical advantage on a smaller being.

I could then also stereotype all parents who tell their child " you cannot go out and play with your friends" as possible mental and emotional abuse.

The "trick" is to figure a way to deterr the child from being disobedient. Once the child has reached enough reasoning to understand that breaking a rule means that discipline will be applied by the parent, then he or she has the ability to make different choices.

With infants up to 12 months, no physical signal of " no do not" should be used IMO. Usualy, it is as the baby learns how to crawl and walk that there are more opportunities for him to " get into things he should not get into". I had a friend who would pick up her baby to remove him from the potentialy harmful situation then hold his face so that the baby would have direct eye contact with her. Then she would give a firm " no, no"" and place the bay back to where he was picked up from. She would watch closely if the little hand was going back to the forbidden object and repeat the same until the baby would abandon his quest.

It seemed to be effective. The baby started interpreting the correlation between the " nono" and his own action.

The comparaison I will make here may bring some critical comments but I will go ahead and give it. I have raised many dogs from very early age. Their sense of cognition is far less than a 12 months old human being. If my puppy ( or even adult dog) was engaging in something not permitted, I would get his attention by holding his head close to mine and insure we had eye contact. Followed by the "no no" I would have to repeat the same many times. However the dog would end up being conditionned to aknowledge that " nono" meant " stop", " do not do it".

I have three children. One pre teen and two teens. I gave my opinion on how discipline can be effective based on my own mistakes and what I learned from them.

Our parenting which includes means of discipline is often guided by how we were raised. Idealy, anyone whe plans on being a parent should attend a mandatory preparation class which covers all aspects of parenting.

openeyes

I say no to spanking at any age. I must confess I probably "smacked" both kids (usually out of frustration due to their non-cooperativeness) once or twice in their preschool years, but was not happy with myself for doing so. I was spanked a few times as a child, but never thought it was deserved. Since striking someone else is not a value most of us would want to promote, why should it be permissable in a parent-child relationship? There are other ways to get your message across. I really am unhappy when I see the polls that say most parents think it's ok, especially when research shows it's not useful.

diana

Sabine,

Spank the child then hug him? What do you think he learns from this?

Why is the object for children to be obedient? I don't mean to impose my definition on you, but "obedience" sounds to me like training--something that is done for hope of reward or out of fear of punishment.

Seems to me as though it would be more useful for the child to learn.

Another thought to toss into the conversation: my mother was(is) a disciplinarian. She believed in spanking children to keep them in line (with her expectations). My father was not. He merely told us when he was disappointed in us, but accepted early on that we were different people and may or may not live up to his expectations for us. Throughout my formative years, I feared displeasing my mother because I'd get "worn out" for it, but I worked hard to avoid displeasing my father because I didn't want to disappoint him.

I feared my mother, but I respected my father.*

I still think my father had the right idea all along. I also think my mother's use of force and fear was more about her need to control others than it was about "what was good for us."

d

*While I still respect my father, the fear I had of my mother was exchanged for disgust and pity when I came of age. I still believe the need to force your will on others belies your own fear and weakness, and little else.

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

dostf

-Well, I am not totally opposed to giving a child a spanking for way over the line behaviour.
- In my own case, I received maybe 4 or 5 during my entire childhood. My parents were very tolerant of almost any behaviour you can imagine, and used all of the "traditional" punishments first.
-However, if I did go way over the line, (such as really beating the hell out of my little brother, they would spank.
- Now the point here is I KNEW the punishment fit the "crime" in MY mind, and that to me it was justified. I certainly have no issues or problems or resentments with how my parents acted now.
- Now I'm not saying spanking is always the best course of action, in fact I still see it as an "action of the last resort".
- The key here is adults recognizing the difference between spanking as a last resort discipline ( for dangerous behaviours, or very unacceptable acts) or spanking because they cannot deal emotionally with their own frustration of being unable to effectively discipline the child.

Be seeing you...

doc58

I have 3 teenagers and this is what I think.

Spanking is, in general, a bad idea. I believe it is useful as a deterrent to dangerous behavior like those mentioned, such as light sockets, to very little kids who need an immediate negative stimulus.
Spanking to any person who is old enough to be aware of what is happening is not a good idea because it is humiliating. One person humiliating another is never right.

I recently heard a sermon which made me sick. He promoted spanking as a command of God and that you should tell your kid, "You disobeyed God. I can't disobey Him also so I must spank you".

Dr Rick

Although the merits of parents using corporal punishment (CP) to discipline children have been argued for decades, a thorough understanding of whether and how corporal punishment affects children has not been reached.

The American Academy of Pediatrics does not condemn the practice but advises in its most recent (1998) policy statement that healthcare-providers educate parents on alternatives to physical punishment.

The published literature is mixed. At least three sequential-analysis studies found beneficial outcomes, such as reduced noncompliance and fighting, primarily when nonabusive spanking was used to back up milder disciplinary tactics in 2- to 6-year olds, but five longitudinal studies that controlled for initial child misbehavior found predominantly detrimental outcomes of spanking. However, those detrimental outcomes may have been primarily due to overly frequent use of physical punishment. Furthermore, apparently detrimental outcomes have been found for every alternative disciplinary tactic when investigated with similar analyses. Such detrimental associations of frequent use of any disciplinary tactic may be due to residual confounding from initial child misbehavior and inadequate parenting skills rather than a direct effect from the appropriate use of punishment.

A recent meta-analysis of the literature published just a few months ago found that corporal punishment was associated with higher levels of immediate compliance but at the cost of lower levels of moral internalization and mental health, and higher levels of aggression; however, the biases and confounds in the meta-analyses may limit any causal inferences that can be drawn concerning the detrimental "effects" of CP on associated child behaviors. In other words, undesirable child outcomes associated with CP in the included studies may have been due to inept and/or harsh parenting.

The harmful effects of physical abuse and other extreme punishments are clear, but a blanket injunction against spanking is not justified by the published literature to date, as CP is not clearly harmful and may have some benefit when applied judiciously.

Rick