chekmate

I just read this whole thread today (and I am a slow reader) so be proud of me. Anyway, I think you should take a look at, and perhaps print out Reverend Jim's Questions for Bible Thumpers for some good questoins. Got my soon-to-be Brother in Law off my back (attending seminary right now, was a youth minister).

Hope all goes well.

Tercel

And if she doesn't believe that then she is not "in fact a christian"???


The beliefs you describe are typical of fundamentalist protestents. To say a person who does not fall into this category is not in fact a Christian, is really a bit steep: What about CS Lewis, what about Mother Teresa?

Amie

I'm a Christian, I dont believe Evil Milkman deserves to go to hell, nor do I believe he is going there.

Proctors_Gambit

"And if she doesn't believe that then she is not "in fact a christian"???" - Tercel

Yeah pretty much.
1. Christian belief is in a just and fair God.
2. Christian belief states that the only way to heaven is to accept Christ.
3. Christian belief states that if you dont accept Christ you are rejecting Christ and will go to hell for eternity.

Due to premise #1 christians feel that premise #2 and #3 are just and fair.

These premises are fundamental to the Christian faith, thus I would make the claim that people that do not hold to these beliefs are not in fact Christians by definition.

I really don't see any grey area here Tercel.

-Gambit

Proctors_Gambit

Tell me Amie,
With reference to the book which you claim is God's word, why you would claim to be a christian yet deny major tennents of its faith.

You say that Evil_Milkman will not go to hell...
Where then?
Heaven?
What happened to 'no-one comes to the father except through me'?

Please, fill me in...

-Gambit

Amie

Hi Gambit
I don't really think one has to believe in people suffering in hell in order to be a christian. I believe in God, I love God however I can not find any continuity between a loving, forgiving God and a God who would send one of his "children" to burn in a pit of fire for all eternity simply for using the free will that he gave us in the first place.
If I believed that people were going to spend an eternity in hell I wonder how I could function on a day to day basis knowing that many of the people who I love will be being tortured. What a disruption to life that would be for me.
I don't believe God would send anyone to hell simply for not believing in him.

Proctors_Gambit

Ok, so you believe in and love God.
The God from the bible.
However, you dont believe the bible:

Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

or perhaps
in Luke 16 22:23
the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments

or perhaps
in Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

You don't believe in hell for sinners, so you don't believe the bible.
Yet you claim to be a christian and reason away your issues with hell by saying it doesn't sound like the actions of a loving, forgiving God.

You're right.
It doesn't.

But it does sound like the God from the bible, very accurately.

Which leads me to conclude that you don't belive in that God, but one you've made up to fulfill your own ideas about what a God should be like, in order to help you get through each day without being worried about people you knew going to hell.
And how much of a disruption it would be to your life.

You said it yourself.

-Gambit

Tercel

Er, no. Christian belief is firmly rooted in the concepts of mercy, and grace: The idea that God is most unfair and doesn't punish people as they deserve, and repays evil with good. eg What about the parable in which all the workers get the same pay (the ones who haven't done a full days work getting the full days pay) - is that fair? No it's generous.
Yes there are times when the Bible speaks of God as being just and fair etc but unless you want to demand that Christians have to be inerrantists or believe everything the Bible says, I don't see the problem. As it is, most christians believe in God's grace.

Er, no. The Bible says that in a couple of places. "The Bible" is not equal to "Christian belief" unless one is a fundamentalist protestant, and even then with every contradiction they pick and choose which passages they're going to believe.
BTW there is a BIIIGGG difference between "the only way to heaven is to accept Christ" and "the only way to heaven is to:
1. during your life
2. believe the claims about christ to be factually accurate
3. based on non-certain evidence".

I agree that the only way to heaven is to accept Christ. What I understand that to mean is radically different to most fundamentalist protestants. Like Amie, I see no reason to think that anyone here is necessarily going to Hell.

Your knowledge of Christian history especially with regard to what various groups of Christians have believed clearly is severely lacking.

Or even if your one of those people who thinks history is bunk then open your eyes and see what's in the world today:
The three largest Christian groups in the world (Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican) do NOT subscribe to the position you describe as being required to be "in fact a Christian".

Are they not in fact Christians?

Tercel

Can we agree that the Bible is sufficiently contradictory in how it portrays God that there can be no "God of the Bible": in the sense that it is impossible for their to exist a God who accurately represents everything that is said about him in the Bible? Yes?

If a person thus believes that a significant portion of what the Bible says about God is true (and obviously believes contrary parts false) - does that count as belief in "the God of the Bible"? If not, why not?

Proctors_Gambit

Well my apologies.
I was under the impression that Christians believed the bible.
However...
"The Bible says that in a couple of places. "The Bible" is not equal to "Christian belief""
...
I am obviously mistaken.

You instead decide to pick and choose parts of the bible to believe.

So your faith is no longer based upon a written document, believed by Christians for hundreds of years to be God's word, but instead on an idea of what YOU want God to be like.

Perhaps you would like to tell me what you believe...
I can start you off.
"I agree that the only way to heaven is to accept Christ" -Tercel
"I see no reason to think that anyone here is necessarily going to Hell" - Tercel

Am I the only one that sees a contradiction between these two statements of yours.

-Gambit.