Primordial Groove

NO, not a joke. Just something I heard this morning as I'm cleaning. When I opened the door, I saw 2 well dressed females, 1 about 35 (Theresa) and another about 18ish (Julie).

(this is part of the conversation. No way I can remember everything that was brought forth. Only Theresa talked.)

Me: Hello ladies. How can I help you.

Th: Hello, we are volunteers serving the area neighborhood. We were just wondering if you have noticed all the bad and grievous things that have been happening in the world around us recently...do you think there will ever be a time that humans will live in peace with each other?

me: No, I don't. Humans have been warring since before recorded history. I do think that getting rid of religion and superstitious beliefs would be a positive step though.

th: (taken aback) I dont think god has that intention for us. if you...

me: Since I dont believe in god, his supposed intentions are meaningless, furthermore...

Th: Oh! you dont believe in god. how long have you been this way or have always not believed?

me: (chuckle) no no, I was raised catholic by my grandparents and then my mother took me to her baptist church after their deaths. So, I had a good deal of exposure to the varying beliefs of christianity.

Th: (chuckle) Well, that would explain it then.

me:

Th: you see, those are not the true teachings of the word of god written in the bible.

me: :banghead:

Th: if we look here in Daniel chapter (whatever) verse (something) it reads (something ambiguous about nations). As you can see, it prophecisizes (her word) a one world government under the rule of god.

me: let me point out that that passage is very ambigous and also let me point out that your god is a spinoff version of the god of judaism. so, with your passage, who's rule of law wil be supreme? Jewish or christian?

th: (pause) well, they are both the same god, so it doesnt matter really.

me: sure it does. I mean, will we be sacrificing goats on alters or perhaps talking to a burning bush or snakes?

th: I guess that woudlnt make sense to a nonbeliever. perhaps if...

me: that shouldnt make sense to anyone. It is physically impossible for a bush to burn without it burning itself to ashes and, if you can have a conversation with a snake you should seek immediate psychiatric help. Have you ever experienced any of these things?

th: well of course not. that is not gods plan for us at this time, but remember, anything is possible for god.

me: such as a flat earth or the impossible story of noahs ark.

th: well the bible is a proven scientific....

me: lol

th: resource. lets look past the flat earth and look to (thumbs to the index)....

me: (waiting)

th: well, i cant seem to remember the exact passage but the history, science and the prophecy of the bible have, for the most part been shown to be true.

me: when you provide proof of that perhaps we can discuss it in length but I claim that the bible has no basis in reality and people should not base their life on it.

th:

me: I dont understand how anyone could base their life on the superstitious beliefs of sheepherders from thousands of years ago. Let me ask you, if a sheepherder came up to you today and said he saw god, would you believe him?

th: (snort) well of course not. God would not show himself in such a way.

me: why wouldnt he? Isnt your bible based upon this same premise?

th: no, its not.

me: (waits for explanation)

(interrupted by my 4 year old)

th: (assertions about gods divine love and plan for us. the jest of it was that even though bad things happen to humans, its gods plan.)

me: that makes no sense. you are saying that god's loving plan involves horrendous deaths? Do you realize that 20000 people die everyday in africa alone? Does this sound like a loving god to you?

th: it's like you and your child. You are the father so you are in charge of their life. They may not want to do something, but in the long run, it is best.

me: That is a horrible analogy! I agree that I am responsible for showing them the ways of the world but, if I was god, I would miracle all the information to them. Your loving, benevolent god supposedly has the power to anything, correct?

th: yes.

me: ok, then why let millions of people die just to get to a supposed heaven on earth? He has the power and benevolence to bypass the death and suffering and take the world right to peace and harmony.

th: yes he does but that is not his plan.

me: why?

th: i dont know. but 6000 years ago he created adam and eve...

me: whoa! you are a young earth creationist, arent you?

th: well, adam and eve were created 6 thousand years ago the rest of the universe and everything in it have been around for many thousands of years.

me: i think the actual age is 13.2 billion years, with a 2% margin of error. I will have to check on the actual number though. Also, if god created the first humans 6000 years ago, how do you explain evolution? It was just the other day that a 160000 year old fossil of early man was found in africa.

(at this point, she is bobbing and weaving faster than a boxer on crack and the conversation did not go any further.)

She basically wants to come back with 'scientific' literature to show that her assertions are valid. I, of course, obliged the request and invited her back for another round.

THe thing that bugs me about the whole scenario is the young girl that was with her. She said absolutely nothing, but goddamn, I know my questions were hitting home with her. Something in her facial features said this is so.
I would like some literature on critical thinking to pass along to these people. After all, if i am going to read their's, they will have to read mine also. If Theresa comes back without Julie, I may just ask her to leafve and get Julie and come back. THen we can begin the discussions.
I have no ulterior motives here other than wanting this young woman to see the wool that has been pulled over her eyes.

Any thoughts?

Mageth

Good job!

Did you ever figure out just which brainwashed group they belong to?

braces_for_impact

Well done! My great great grandpappy always used to say "If they bring it to your door to start, then they shouldn't be offended when you're obliged to finish."

I never knew my great, great grandpappy, and I doubt he ever said anything remotely like that, but it sounded good didn't it?

Shadowy Man

13.7

Azathoth

jehova's witnesses.That's the group that came to your door.Either them,or someone who's identical in beliefs.I'd heard they'd been told to keep who they were under wraps a bit.

It seems they were getting too many doors closed in their face,as soon as they identified themselves,so now their going into stealth mode.

I wonder if you'll get a return visit.If you do,it might be from someone who's more of a heavy hitter in the local group of drones,and armed with their Creation book.

I really doubt that you'll get them to budge on the 6000 years of human existance assertion they make.You see,their big bad apocalypse is supposed to come at the end of 6000 years of human existance-I.E:6000 years after adam was booted from eden.

The last time they really went on about it was in 1974,but when '74 came and went,they quickly backpedaled,and stated that adam may have lived a lot of years in the garden of eden before he was booted out,giving them a way to stretch the time to whenever they wanted to,but still allowing them to keep the whole armageddon thing on the front burner.

Here's a guy who gives a point by point rebuttal of their book,which would be the primary source material they would use to debate you.I have to say,that among creationist tripe,this book is one of the dumber ones.

http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/ce01.htm

mike_decock

Great rebuttals, PG!

-Mike...

Bree

Good job.

christ-on-a-stick

Awesome job PG!!!! Very ~groovy~

I hope she comes back and brings Julie with her... it would be fantastic if you were able to get her thinking. I mean, for the love of cheese, the girl is only 18 (or thereabouts...) she's got her whole life ahead of her! Hopefully she can escape sooner than later

Nowhere357

Outstanding idea. If you find or assemble something appropriate - basic, fairly short - please share! I'll print some out, fold it, and keep it handy. Yes, a good idea.

As a resident of western Colorado, I meet Mormon's all the time.

Primordial Groove

Azathoth is correct. They were JW's.


Exactly Choas (chaos?).
And that's what gets to me. I'd hate to see her life veiled in the god cloak without questioning why she does so. I realize it is her choice to make, but, being brainwashed makes the choices unfamiliar and downright scary.

And this is what I really wanted advice about. What material is available to get this girl thinking? What can be said or read that can not be readily retorted by her congregation? Would it be better to use shock therapy, such as showing her literature about the brainwashing that goes on in the JW community? OR, would a more subtle approach be best?
I dont think an in your face approach would be best. This would be turned around to show the evil atheist conspiracy at work. BEWARE! I guess the question is: how does a person deprogram themselves? What information has to be presented to begin the questions?
Now, I dont think I'd go so far as to try and get her to not believe in god. I would consider an agnostic Julie a huge success. A questioning Julie would still be a success, nonetheless.

Another reason I am taking a personal interest in this is because a friend of mine, when we were about Julies age became a JW bot. It happened at a time in his life when he was very confused and didnt have anyone to turn to. The JW's happened to come knocking at this time. His whole life is now focused on the misery and suffering happening and waiting for gods kingdom on earth. Poor bastard.

Btw, thanks for that JW link. Im sure I will find some valuable information there.