Jack Moore

In order for me to have free will, then I must have number of (at least two) choices. I must also be unaware of the out come of any choice I may make. I can not be aware of which choice I will make before I make it. If I knew the outcome of any choice, then I would always choose the most beneficial or profitable of all the choices. If I knew ahead of time the choice I was going to make (if I were ‘all knowing’), it would not be a choice. That is to say, I would only really have one choice, which is really no choice at all. I would have no free will in the true sense; I would be bound to the most beneficial course of action. I would be bound to the choice I was predestined to make by my knowing ahead of time the choice I was about to make.

An all knowing god would not have free will. It would know the choice it needed to make; or should I say, it would also know the choice it was predetermined to make. Predetermined by its own ‘all knowingness’.

The creature depicted in the bible makes choices. It chose to flood the planet after it realized the pet humans it created were flawed. It chose to kill its son in order to save the next batch of pet humans for the same reason.

It is the opinion of Christians, it seems to me, their god has free will and is all knowing. This is irrational, in my opinion. An all knowing god would be little more than a programmed machine. A god with free will would not be all knowing and would be capable of making mistakes. If god is an all knowing machine without free will of its own, why would it give free will to us? If being ‘all knowing’ is a better design than having free will, why not give us ‘all knowingness’ instead? If we were all knowing, there would be no reason for the mythical creature to flood the planet or kill its son.

Christians want it both ways. They want to give their god both free will and ‘all knowingness’. I feel this irrational belief is the foundation of all their irrational thinking. They have no problem claiming this mythical creature is a god of love despite its unjust and brutal behavior written in the bible. Both a loving creature and a brutal one. They claim this creature is perfect, even though it is a self-proclaimed jealous god. Again, Christians want it both ways. Both perfect and jealous.

Christian leaders need to redefine the mythical creature they worship. Then they should rewrite the bible, again, to fit this new and improved god. If they do not, rational thought will overcome their flawed religion. Their brainwashed followers may someday refuse to turn a blind eye to the inconsistencies of their holy scripture. Jack Moore.

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Jack Moore ]</p>

Mageth

Further, if god is omniscient, we cannot have free will either. When presented with a choice, we are constrained to make the choice that god already knows we are going to make. We are not free to make the other choice.

Not Prince Hamlet

Ah, you've named my favorite paradox, the Free Will Paradox. I love confounding theists with that one!

Jeff

Tercel

Can we not solve the problem simply by restricting God's omniscience to all things other than Himself? That is to say that he doesn't know what he is going to do. He'd still be omniscient with regard to the created universe - which from our POV is the only thing that matters.

Perhaps they might think that some of the stories aren't literally true.

Nah, they've done enough defining over the past two millennia.

I doubt it: The fundies will always be fundies. For the rest of us, we're already perfectly aware of what the problems are and aren't.

Tercel

Not Prince Hamlet

And sets can no longer contain themselves!

Jeff

Mageth

Can we not solve the problem simply by restricting God's omniscience to all things other than Himself?

What would you do about scriptures such as Romans 11, which says "For of Him and by Him and in Him, are all things..." ?

CyberPretzel

So God could know that a person in the future turned to God because God healed some malady he had, but not be able to see that it was himself that healed him? In other words, if God omniscience applies to humans and he interacted at all with humans he would know everything about that interaction and thus know he was going to make the decision to intervene.

CyberPretzel

hinduwoman

If anyone is seriously advocating this argument, it is very lame. If God doesnot know about himself, then how can you expect men to know about him?

Bill Snedden

Whoa! Nice catch!

Bill