Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Panta Pei · 06-04-2002, 11:15 PM

Because its easier to post a graven 10 commandments placard in the courtroom than to try it with all those pesky criminal statutes found in the judges chambers that society is really governed by.

luvluv · 06-05-2002, 04:41 PM

I actually think Jesus cut them down to two.

Philosoft · 06-05-2002, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
<strong>I actually think Jesus cut them down to two.</strong>

Well, thanks to ShottleBop, we know the Talmud says Amos crammed them all into one. I guess he's better than Jesus.

wordsmyth · 06-05-2002, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by excreationist:
Exodus 20
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 5
9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Am I the only one that sees a definite problem with the above commandments? According to the second verse in each of the above quotes God will show love to a thousand generations of those who love and keep his commandments, but the first verse seems to create a bit of a problem with that.

If(hypothetically of course) my mother and father were devout xians who loved God and kept his commandments, then according to the second verse God will show love to a thousand generations of my mother and father's offspring. But what if I ended up a devout Muslim who worshipped Allah? Would I and my offspring to the third and fourth generation be punished as the first verse explains or would we be loved because of my parents devotion?

Love and punishment aren't always contrary to one another, though this particular context implies they are mutually exclusive. (i.e. it's either one or the other)

However, throughout the bible God's appetite for punishment seems to frequently over-rule his love and mercy, so why should this situation be any different.

Vorkosigan · 06-06-2002, 01:21 AM

I recall reading that the TC became popular in the Middle Ages after inclusion in a popularly-disseminated prayer work, and were unimportant in Xtian belief prior to that. I believe the online entry in the Enc. Brit. said it, but I can no longer access their site.

Vorkosigan

Thor Q. Mada · 06-06-2002, 01:54 AM

Vorkosigan,
I think your are right. And on another issue, it always comes as a surprise to xians that a lot of their firm beliefs are actually relatively recently introduced dogmas.
For example, the infalibility of the pope. I forgot the actual date, but it is less than 100 years old.
Also can you believe that in todays world they are still canonizing death people?? I mean, I have to sit down sometimes when I read the catholic press. SOOO much stupidity one one page!!

excreationist · 06-06-2002, 05:35 AM

Some other stuff:
from <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/sabbath.htm" target="_blank">ReligiousTolerance.org - The Weekly Sabbath - Saturday or Sunday?</a>

Quote:

Since the ancient Israelites defined sundown as the end of a day, the Sabbath runs from local sundown on Friday night until sundown on Saturday.

...So tightly linked is Saturday to the Sabbath that in over 100 languages (one source says 160) the name for Saturday is some variation of the word "Sabbath." (English is one exception; Saturday is named after the Roman Pagan god Saturn).

Why and When the Weekly Sabbath was Moved
During the period 30 CE to 313 CE, Christians lived in a predominately Pagan world:

- The long established, official religion of the Roman Empire was Pagan.
- A strong competitor to Christianity in those days was a third religion: Mithraism. This faith involved the worship of a Persian God Mithra, and was popular among the Roman civil service and military.

Both of these religions reserved Sunday as their day of religious observance. Many Christians were probably tempted to follow suit.

The Christians were also motivated to change the Sabbath day as a method of distancing themselves from the Jews. Two reasons were:

- The Government was intermittently persecuting the Jews at this time; it was safer for Christianity to be considered as a separate religion rather than as a sect of Judaism.
- Relations between the Jews and Christians was hostile at this time. The early Christian church had suffered much persecution from the Jews.

In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest:

"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."

The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath. They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." There are many indicators in the historical record that some Christians ignored the Church's ruling. Sabbath observance was noted in Wales in 1115 CE. Francis Xavier was concerned about Sabbath worship in Goa India in 1560 CE; he called for the Inquisition to set up an office there to stamp out what he called "Jewish wickedness". A Catholic Provincial Council suppressed the practice in Norway in 1435 CE.

====================

Vorkosigan:
Perhaps you mean Luther's catechism.
<a href="http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/little.book/web/book-1.html" target="_blank">Luther's small catechism</a>
This is what I had to memorize when I was young.
Even in Luther's <a href="http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-luther.html#sw-lc" target="_blank">large catechism</a> the commandments are very short.

This is what Luther said the commandments were:

Quote:

1. You must not have other gods.
2. You must not misuse your God's name.
3. You must keep the Sabbath holy.
4. You must honor your father and mother.
5. You must not kill.
6. You must not commit adultery.
7. You must not steal.
8. You must not tell lies about your neighbor.
9. You must not desire your neighbor's house.
10. You must not desire your neighbor's wife, servant, maid, animals or anything that belongs to him.
The Conclusion to the Commandments - "I am the Lord Your God. I am a jealous God. I plague the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of those who hate me with their ancestor's sin. But I make whole those who love me for a thousand generations."

He made Christians turn to the Bible - instead of listening to the Pope - and priests that talk in latin. He left out the part about not bowing down to any idol of anything... many Christians still recognize that as the third commandment. Since Luther was a commandment short he split the last one in half. But Deuteronomy 5:21 shows that you can't split "you shalt not covet your neighbour's house" out if it since it is in the middle of the verse, before the part about coveting your neighbour's wife.

Fastfalcon · 06-06-2002, 05:38 AM

Well you know the pope is falliable, but tell a devout Catholic that and they say you get burnt for all eternity. What deception!

beachbum · 06-06-2002, 05:40 AM

In Mark didn't Jesus add an eleventh commandment that has since been lost or ignored, I think it was something about thou shalt not commit fraud.

But what bothers me so much is the dumb asses that cling to a set of 10 items that for the most part have no credence today. Of the 10 that everyone is so bent out of shape over only about 6 could really apply to most people today. Right?

excreationist · 06-06-2002, 06:07 AM

Here's the other 10 commandments.....
(I guessed the numbering a bit)

Exodus 34:1,12-28:

Quote:

The Lord said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

1. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

2. Do not make cast idols.

3. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

4. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

5. No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

6. Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

7. Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God.

8. Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

9. Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

10. Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk.

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments.

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06-04-2002, 11:15 PM	#11
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	Because its easier to post a graven 10 commandments placard in the courtroom than to try it with all those pesky criminal statutes found in the judges chambers that society is really governed by.

06-05-2002, 04:41 PM	#12
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I actually think Jesus cut them down to two.

06-06-2002, 01:21 AM	#15
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	I recall reading that the TC became popular in the Middle Ages after inclusion in a popularly-disseminated prayer work, and were unimportant in Xtian belief prior to that. I believe the online entry in the Enc. Brit. said it, but I can no longer access their site. Vorkosigan

06-06-2002, 01:54 AM	#16
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	Vorkosigan, I think your are right. And on another issue, it always comes as a surprise to xians that a lot of their firm beliefs are actually relatively recently introduced dogmas. For example, the infalibility of the pope. I forgot the actual date, but it is less than 100 years old. Also can you believe that in todays world they are still canonizing death people?? I mean, I have to sit down sometimes when I read the catholic press. SOOO much stupidity one one page!!

06-06-2002, 05:38 AM	#18
Fastfalcon Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bermuda Posts: 114	Well you know the pope is falliable, but tell a devout Catholic that and they say you get burnt for all eternity. What deception!

06-06-2002, 05:40 AM	#19
beachbum Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL Posts: 864	In Mark didn't Jesus add an eleventh commandment that has since been lost or ignored, I think it was something about thou shalt not commit fraud. But what bothers me so much is the dumb asses that cling to a set of 10 items that for the most part have no credence today. Of the 10 that everyone is so bent out of shape over only about 6 could really apply to most people today. Right?

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