Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 05-05-2002, 11:38 AM

A long article by an LA Times religion reporter, on a subject that has been discussed here before, the extent to which American policy on Isreal has been shaped by Bibical concerns. The article sites polling data showing that Evangelican Protestants support Israel at 64%, vs 49% for others, which makes them the margin of political support. It cites the head of the Baptist convention's ethics committee as saying "The Bible belt is Israel's safety belt."

Most of the article concerns the Religious Left, but it is clear that the evangelicals have more support and organization.

<a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-050502schism.story" target="_blank">Christians Split Over Conflict in the Mideast</a>. Liberal Jews find themselves allied with conservative evangelical believers.

Quote:

In recent days, Christians from both camps have unleashed a barrage of dueling messages on the Mideast--backed by their own selective readings of biblical commands about Israel. Evangelical Christian supporters of Israel cite God's promises to Abraham of land and divine assurances that God would "curse those who curse" Jews. Those more troubled by Israeli actions focus on biblical railings that the chosen people would be "utterly destroyed" and the land would "vomit" them out if they failed to remain righteous and keep God's commands.

From <a href="http://www.patrobertson.com/teaching/TeachingonIsraelTerritory.asp" target="_blank">Pat Robertson's site</a>:

Quote:

And now, can Israel survive?

Of course, it will survive because God is going to defend it.

And why is America in favor of Israel? Because we have a great history of biblical belief -- Judeo-Christian -- and we believe God gave the land to the descendents of Israel.

It was not given to Palestine, it wasn't given to so-called Palestinians. It wasn't given to Saudis or the Syrians.

It was given to the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob through Joshua. God said, You step on it and conquer it and I will give it to you. We are looking at a time dating back 3,000 years. This has been the land of Israel. And it belongs to them. And God is not going to let anybody take it away from them.

<a href="http://www.patrobertson.com/teaching/TeachingonIsrael.asp" target="_blank">and even worse</a>

Quote:

I was simply overjoyed on June 5, 1967 when I heard that war had broken out to reclaim Jerusalem for Israel. That was a fulfillment of the prophecy of Jesus Christ. I want to show you what that prophecy was. The world had waited for a long time for it to be fulfilled.

Jesus said these words in the book of Luke:

...and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Luke 21:24 NASB

What does trampled under the foot of the Gentiles mean? From 506 BC under Nebuchadnezzar and through the time of Alexander the Great and the Romans and later the British and the Ottoman Turks, Jerusalem was under the control of so-called Gentile powers.

But in 1967, during the six-day war, the old city of Jerusalem, the city where Jesus walked and the Temple Mount stood and the citadel of David stood, that city was delivered into the hands of Israel. And it was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy that had been awaiting fulfillment for 2,500 years. It started a countdown, 40 years in a sense of Gentile power in decline.

And now, the United Nations yesterday said we don't believe the word of God. We will reverse it, and the United States led the way to say we want to take East Jerusalem back from the Jewish nation in defiance of the words of Jesus Christ, and we want to give it to none other than the Palestinian Authority and Yasar Arafat who is a sworn enemy of Israel who has declared he wants to destroy it.

The next scripture that is important is found in the book of the prophet Zechariah:

For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

Zechariah 14:2-4 NASB

Now, that prophecy in Zechariah has not yet totally been fulfilled, but this is a precursor of it because the United Nations represents all of the nations of the earth and they have now come against Jerusalem.

And the Israeli ambassador said isn't this wonderful, they are not condemning us, just taking our land from us.

Here is the West Bank. When this whole territory is taken away and given to Yasar Arafat along with the Gaza strip, they will actually be in a position to do terrible damage to Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv and the state of Israel will be compromised territorially and militarily on into the future. And the United States of America led the way to this "peaceful" solution.

I recommend very strongly that those in America begin to pray.

[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]</p>

Krieger · 05-05-2002, 03:45 PM

What do you mean by the "Religious Left"?

I cannot think of any religious leader that openly supports the left. Yes, there have been several that have supported the Democratic Party, but not the left.

Gar · 05-05-2002, 04:46 PM

Does anyone else think it's disgusting how the fundies spout all this pro-israel rhetoric while dealing with Islam, but once things get back to normal they will start with their anti semitic bit about how the Jews crucified their lord?

Anyone else think that is especially ridiculous?

Toto · 05-05-2002, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Krieger:
<strong>What do you mean by the "Religious Left"?

I cannot think of any religious leader that openly supports the left. Yes, there have been several that have supported the Democratic Party, but not the left.</strong>

Read the article for examples. There are lots of Unitarians, liberal Protestants, and Jews who try to define their politics by ethics that they think they find in their religions. This puts them on the side of the left wing of the Democratic Party, if not the socialists. Their issues are peace and social justice. Lately they have added the environment to their causes.

Needless to say, they are no match for the Religious Right.

Krieger · 05-05-2002, 07:36 PM

Hmm, I didn't see anything in the article indicating a "religious left". They were mostly just talking about "liberal Christians" or "liberal Jews" which doesn't mean that they are leftests. For example, you could have a "liberal Southern Baptist" that isn't a sexist-pig, but would still be very conservative on virtually any other issue.

However, I suppose pagan/Unitarian groups might be considered a religious left though.

Jamie_L · 05-06-2002, 08:36 AM

The religious left is more of a category, while the religious right is more of an organization. There are many people who fall into the religious left - people whose religion influences their politics in a way that makes them lean left. They just don't get as much press. Partly because they are less organized, partly because the left in general is so diverse and disorganized.

I think also the religious left tends to be less vocal about religion when pushing politics - so you may not realize religion was involved at all.

In fact, the Catholic church, in many ways other than right-to-life issues, is often really a member of the religious left, rather than the religious right.

Jamie

Corwin · 05-06-2002, 09:10 AM

Well... mostly.

The Catholics would easily be on the 'religious left' if John Paul wasn't so conservative. Liberation Theology is actually highly leftist, but the current pope never has been willing to endorse it, so they don't get any support from the Church.

Toto · 05-06-2002, 09:25 AM

Liberation theologists are practically marxists (or maybe marxists are really liberation theologists.) The liberation theologists in Latin America made alliances with leftist revolutionaries fighting their governments. The current pope defined himself in opposition to a Communist government in Poland, and is anti-Communist above all. He has managed to put the Catholic church on a conservative path that will keep it out of the clutches of revolutionaries who take what Jesus said about the poor seriously.

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05-05-2002, 03:45 PM	#2
Krieger Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: ... Posts: 2,191	What do you mean by the "Religious Left"? I cannot think of any religious leader that openly supports the left. Yes, there have been several that have supported the Democratic Party, but not the left.

05-05-2002, 04:46 PM	#3
Gar Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Boston, Mass Posts: 347	Does anyone else think it's disgusting how the fundies spout all this pro-israel rhetoric while dealing with Islam, but once things get back to normal they will start with their anti semitic bit about how the Jews crucified their lord? Anyone else think that is especially ridiculous?

05-05-2002, 07:36 PM	#5
Krieger Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: ... Posts: 2,191	Hmm, I didn't see anything in the article indicating a "religious left". They were mostly just talking about "liberal Christians" or "liberal Jews" which doesn't mean that they are leftests. For example, you could have a "liberal Southern Baptist" that isn't a sexist-pig, but would still be very conservative on virtually any other issue. However, I suppose pagan/Unitarian groups might be considered a religious left though.

05-06-2002, 08:36 AM	#6
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	The religious left is more of a category, while the religious right is more of an organization. There are many people who fall into the religious left - people whose religion influences their politics in a way that makes them lean left. They just don't get as much press. Partly because they are less organized, partly because the left in general is so diverse and disorganized. I think also the religious left tends to be less vocal about religion when pushing politics - so you may not realize religion was involved at all. In fact, the Catholic church, in many ways other than right-to-life issues, is often really a member of the religious left, rather than the religious right. Jamie

05-06-2002, 09:10 AM	#7
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Well... mostly. The Catholics would easily be on the 'religious left' if John Paul wasn't so conservative. Liberation Theology is actually highly leftist, but the current pope never has been willing to endorse it, so they don't get any support from the Church.

05-06-2002, 09:25 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Liberation theologists are practically marxists (or maybe marxists are really liberation theologists.) The liberation theologists in Latin America made alliances with leftist revolutionaries fighting their governments. The current pope defined himself in opposition to a Communist government in Poland, and is anti-Communist above all. He has managed to put the Catholic church on a conservative path that will keep it out of the clutches of revolutionaries who take what Jesus said about the poor seriously.

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