Cutter

For those who are unfamiliar with fatalism, as I understand it fatalists don't necessarily believe in deities (on the whole, however, I understand that they don't) but they do believe in pre-ordination. From what I can gather the level of pre-ordination does vary somewhat, some hold that only major events are pre-ordained, others that everything you do, from womb to tomb, is pre-ordained.

The first I ever heard of this particular belief system was in high school when a fellow student told me that that was what he believed (no god but everything is pre-ordained). And I've been puzzled by this belief system ever since.

I've never really been able to wrap my head around this one. It seems to me that this belief essentially says we have no free will. I just cannot understand how anyone can believe this. The thought that everything I do has been planned out in advance is, frankly, frightening. If I believed that way I don't think I'd even bother getting up in the morning. What would be the point? If I have no free will, if I don't really make any choices, any difference, etc., then what is the point in existing?

Am I alone in being puzzled by fatalism? Have I perhaps misunderstood some of it's tenets? Anyone want to express their views on fatalism? I'd love to hear them, especially if you are a fatalist yourself.

tronvillain

As far as I can tell, fatalism is a belief that certain events are going to happen in spite of whatever choices you make. This is distinct from strict determinism and probablistic determinism, both of which are compatible with coherent conceptions of "free will."

The only reason having your life "planned out in advance" is frightening is that it conflicts with intuitive notions of free will - it implies that you are unable to make choices or that the choices you make affect nothing. Neither of these states necessarily hold under determinism, whether strict of probablistic. Under determinism it is possible to make choices (though the choice you make is determined) and it is possible for your choices to have effects. Who could coherently ask for anything more?

Ender

I think fatalism is another variant of determinism that is far too positive, much like predestination.

~WiGGiN~

Schmuck

Well, you can't disprove determinism, can you? Does it make any difference whether or not it is true?

tronvillain

No, it's theoretically disprovable. Of course, it would require us to observe that there is no connection between cause and effect.

Kip

Talking about fatalism will change nothing so why bother.

Straight Hate

All I know is that I'm bound to my future... horrible fate!

0n0w1c

i am just learning about philosphies... so i may be mispeaking. if so, someone please correct me.

fatalism has a fallacy, it "assumes" a cause for existance, a "first cause". if so... how did the first cause come to be? a never ending circle.

all that exists, exists because all that is, is.
no begining, no end. this not to say that the universe as we know it may not "end" someday... in a great colapse or the big chill, you pick your event.

but to question were did matter and energy come from is silly, it has always been... in some form or another. thus, no first cause. no fatalism.

[ May 12, 2002: Message edited by: 0n0w1c ]</p>

Nu

The deepest parts of decision making and judgement are intuitive--the thought just pops into your head.

Let me give an example: What is your Mother's maiden name?

There may be some discourse going on inside your mind while you try to answer that, but even that is determined by a split-second intuitive feeling on what is the apt word to say in your minds voice. Eventually, her name will appear in your head.

When I watch this happen, it seems more and more that my decisions and judgements are merely handed to me by a process or thing beyond myself.

crocodile deathroll

If you asked me about ten years ago what my thoughts were on fatalism then I would of be very much in favor of it mainly on the grounds of the twins paradox like when twin A stays behind on Earth and the twin B travels on a space ship at a substantial percentage of the speed of light will exits in two time continuums.
When twin B returns back to earth he will observe twin A in some future event that twin A does not know he has reached yet. Twin B does not have to travel on a space ship to through the time continuums out of kilter, just the simple act of twin A sitting on a chair in the middle of a room while twin B runs off to the store for a loaf of bread will make twin B a miniscule fraction of a second younger than twin A due to the time dilation effect. So I believed at that point of time that we do not make the future as we go along but it is out there waiting for us to get there.
But quantum mechanics and chaos theory has muddied the waters a little since then and I have quite a few reservations o fatalism. By virtue of the many histories interpretation there are many futures out there waiting for us to get there and we can only really be consciously aware of just one of them.

croc <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />