Violent Messiah

Just had a mind-blowing thought.

This question is basically for theists, deists and the lot.

In 'The scientific probability that there is a God' thread, ozero presents us a matrix-esque situation that we may be just figments of imagination of a higher being or that we may be just computer programs being monitored still by a higher power. It is in the same sense that computer programmers construct a virtual reality in which the characters have no idea of their existence - their God's existence. Or I may imagine a whole new universe and the characters there don't know of my existence.

Well, I'll extrapolate it backwards. Let's say there is a God that created us, does He know that he's the ultimate being, or is He just another creation by another Higher power? When does it stop? Therefore, who is the real God?

B. H. Manners

I think that is an interesting idea Violent Messiah. Let's see how it develops in discussion.

Jobar

Hi Violent Messiah, and welcome.

A couple of months ago, there was an exellent discussion concerning the possibility that the universe we observe could be a virtual reality. Check out this thread. It starts a bit slow, but by the second page the ideas are quite fascinating. If the point you want to make is not the same as what was discussed there, we await your further comments with interest.

Amie

Hi Violent Messiah
I believe God is all knowing so therefore I believe he knows he is God.
Its interesting because I was just talking about this tonight at Starbucks with my friend Matt (we rarely talk about religion) but he told me this "Amie if there was a God surely you must admit he'd be an atheist"...

Bill Snedden

Actually, we've had a couple of discussions on this topic or similar ones regarding omniscience and God's relationship to his knowledge thereof.

Here is a link to a previous discussion on the alleged incoherence of "omniscience" in which there is a reference to Patrick Grim's Cantorian argument against omniscience (the link is actually to an exchange between Grim and Alvin Plantinga).

I'm certainly no expert in set theory, but I believe Grim's argument is that since knowing that he knows everything would constitute knowing the truth of the power set of all truths, and since the power set of all truths cannot exist (ala Cantor), God cannot be omniscient as omniscience is incoherent. It follows, therefore, that if he's not omniscient, then he cannot know that there is no other being out there with powers equal to or surpassing his own and thus cannot know that he's God. QED.

Of course, it's not really that simple, and there are certainly defenses to be offered.

In particular, Plantinga's counter, to define omniscience as "knowing all true propositions and believing no false ones" seems to offer some promise. However, this would seem to leave open the question, "does God know that he knows everything?" It seems to me that knowing the truth of this proposition ("Do I know everything?") would constitute knowing the truth of the set of all truths. But, from Cantor, we know that the set of all truths doesn't exist. Therefore, while God might indeed know everything, he can't know that he knows everything.

This in turn would seem to raise questions regarding God's relationship to his own epistemology, but I think I'll leave it there because it just makes my head hurt.

Regards,

Bill Snedden
____________
"When in danger, fear, or doubt, run in circles, scream, and shout." Lazarus Long

excreationist

BTW, movies like Thirteenth Floor, Dark City, ExistenZ and Nirvana are kind of like the Matrix... and in Thirteenth Floor and Existenz there are multiple layers of reality like you are talking about.

Darth Dane

The point of my posts, has been to illustrate that we will never know! I believe all is one, so teh scale may be infinite, which it probably is, so it goes on and on.

Where are we in all this?

Always in the center.

Your awareness never moves, it is in the center of is-ness.

The universe exists.
I exist.

I am equal 100% to the universe in the fact that we both exist. The universe is big, I am small, but we both are.


God exists
The universe exists
I exist

I am equal 100% to God and the universe in the fact that we all exist.
Where do they exist?
In my mind, but I AM equal to God if God exists! Unless someone considers me not to be alive, or in existance. But that poses a problem...who the F*** is writing this then?

Tibetan munks and yogi's have said that all of manifestation is made of mind! Funny coincidence eh?

Do you KNOW that it is not made of mind?
Choose to believe your reality!

Do you know that YOU are God?
I believe I am....but I don't KNOW.

I Am.

"Man was made in Gods image"
Is it only image?
If we are created in Gods image, and we are imperfect, what does that make God?
Maybe someone created God.

Why? To keep on perfecting in expression that which cannot be uttered on any tongue.

God is the silent sound, by th euse of sound we try to get ever closer to that which is silent, and we strive our "best" to express it.





DD - Real Spliff

ex-xian

Quote:

I am equal 100% to the universe in the fact that we both exist. The universe is big, I am small, but we both are.

Well, I don't know if this is true or not. You say that you are 100% sure that you exist. Maybe, maybe not. But no matter what you say, your knowledge of the universe is limited by your experience of the universe. You can never know the universe's existence in and of itself. All you can know is you empirical experience of the universe. The true ontology of the universe outside of yourself is unknown to you.

Quote:

I am equal 100% to God and the universe in the fact that we all exist.

I think the same argument would apply to God's existence, only more strongly. Further, the nature of God's existence is clouded by the nature of an omnipotent being. In typical predication, predication is done univocally. We know (to the best of our ability) both the subject of object of the statement. But God, by definition is infinite. Therefore, any predication of God is necessarily equivocal, since we, being finite, cannot speak knowledgebly of the infinite. So the only proper way to speak of God is negatively. The "via negativa" the way of the negative.

Darth Dane

Sorry for the inconvenience....

ex-xian

??? Did I miss something?