Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Hypernovean · 12-06-2002, 04:55 AM

I found this little snippet at <a href="http://www.thechristianbbs.com/" target="_blank">The Christian BBS</a>, which I only visited for the first time today. I thought this was interesting, so I'm passing it on here.

======

Vatican won�t rule out bid for U.N. membership

Associated Press November 25, 2002

VATICAN CITY � The Holy See will explore stepping up its presence at the United Nations and does not rule out a bid for membership, according to media reports Sunday.

The Vatican, a city-state, is a permanent observer at the United Nations, a status that lets it participate in U.N. conferences and deliver speeches in the General Assembly but gives it no voting power.

In an interview with Corriere della Sera newspaper, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican�s No. 2 official, was asked if the United Nations was up to its peace tasks.

"It must be up to the task and every one must do their part to help it assume an ever-more active and efficient role on the world scene," replied Sodano, the Vatican�s secretary of state.

He added, "The Holy See intends to study the possible forms of its own stepped-up presence in that connection."

Asked if that meant the Vatican might become a U.N. member, Sodano was quoted as replying: "If that were useful, I wouldn�t rule it out."

======

Now, what do you think the Vatican would do with full membership in the UN? Would it have the kind of power true nations have? It's worrying that the church is trying to squeeze its way in here.
I see it as the ultimate breaking of church/state seperation; but in this case, the "state" in question is a group of states, which effect the whole world.

Does this mean that the church thinks of itself as a nation now?

abe smith · 12-06-2002, 06:08 AM

Oh, YES! The Vatican City-State is recognized by the UN, and certainly DOES define "itself" (sic = another damn human fiction) as a NATION & the peer of Russia, China, USA etc. This is madness ; except that that is how the UN is organized. Liechtenstein & Monaco for example
are also sovreign nations. We skeptics &
cynics may infer that Vatican City-State wants "in" in order to wield POWER and to have status to push their agenda = including universal condemnation/rejection of >>>> family planning, of birth control, of *women"'s autonomy ;.... and all those other great CatholicChrx dogmata.
If they get away w/ this current thrust, watch OUDT! Things CAN get worse. If you'd like some data about Vatican City, look it up in a current World (e.g.) Almanac, or other. Their assertion of "nationhood" is laughable; but that's what (the fact of MANMADE) language gets you.

Rusting Car Bumper · 12-06-2002, 07:04 AM

Bring the Pope in for past war crimes!

DC

RufusAtticus · 12-08-2002, 07:14 PM

Well the Holy See is a soverign nation, as established by The Lateran Treaty of 1929. I see no reason why it should be deined admitance to the UN.

[ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

Oresta · 12-09-2002, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Now, what do you think the Vatican would do with full membership in the UN? Would it have the kind of power true nations have? It's worrying that the church is trying to squeeze its way in here.
I see it as the ultimate breaking of church/state seperation; but in this case, the "state" in question is a group of states, which effect the whole world.

As Abe points out, the Vatican already wields considerable influence in the U.N., particularly related to family planning, abortion, condoms for safe sex, and all those other "sins". Other Non-Government Organizations have complained about the inappropriate influence of the Vatican not enjoyed by other NGOs.

Quote:

Does this mean that the church thinks of itself as a nation now?

The Vatican is not recognized as a nation state by most of the world, nor should it be. If anything, its undue influence as an NGO should be limited to that of the other NGOs.

abe smith · 12-09-2002, 06:46 AM

Excuse my flat contradiction, ^^^^ Guy; but, for example, the US of A of course recognizes Vatican City as a (true) nation state == "we" send an ambassador there, very well paid no doubt; altho you have to be rich to lead a happy life as a diplomat, I am informed....
My blood still boils over this fact = the US recognition of that (insert expletives/modifiers)Entity. ( What! do I allow that a (Platonic) government is an Entity? Sorry = blah blah blah)

Buffman · 12-09-2002, 11:26 AM

<a href="http://www.population-security.org/15-CH7.html" target="_blank">http://www.population-security.org/15-CH7.html</a>

<a href="http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/holyalliance1of2.html" target="_blank">http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/holyalliance1of2.html</a>

12-09-2002, 12:26 PM

<a href="http://www.cath4choice.org/" target="_blank">Catholics for a Free Choice</a> has for some time been running a campaign called See Change to get the Vatican's Observer status at the UN annulled.

I don't see how they could ever be a proper member of the UN. They would find it difficult to sign up to all the instruments on human rights.

Grumpy · 12-09-2002, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by abe smith:
This is madness; except that that is how the UN is organized. Liechtenstein & Monaco for example are also sovreign nations.

Living as I do in a superpower country, it's hard to comprehend the existence of <a href="http://www.countrywatch.com/@school/smallest_countries.htm" target="_blank">microstates</a>. I addition to those already mentioned, you've got San Marino and Andorra, and plenty of sovereign islands: Grenada, Antigua & Barbuda, St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Vincent & Grenadines, Barbados, Seychelles, Maldives, Marshall Islands, Palau, Tuvalu, and tiny Nauru, which is basically a dot in the Pacific where birds stop to poop, which is Nauru's only industry.

Compared to them, a podunk country like <a href="http://www.mauritius.net/basicinfo.html" target="_blank">Mauritius</a> is a giant, with almost 10 times the land area. And it's currently a member of the U.N. Security Council!

Again, this is a mighty superpower talking, but I don't think we need any more of those in the U.N.

Grumpy · 12-09-2002, 02:51 PM

To follow up, there are 29 countries in the U.N. (including the Vatican for the moment) that are <a href="http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/area_country_desc.php" target="_blank">smaller</a> than Rhode Island (approx. 3000 sq.km).

By comparison, Trinidad, Fiji and Djibouti are vast swaths across the map.

12-06-2002, 04:55 AM	#1
Hypernovean Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: - Posts: 67	Vatican City considering UN membership I found this little snippet at <a href="http://www.thechristianbbs.com/" target="_blank">The Christian BBS</a>, which I only visited for the first time today. I thought this was interesting, so I'm passing it on here. ====== Vatican won�t rule out bid for U.N. membership Associated Press November 25, 2002 VATICAN CITY � The Holy See will explore stepping up its presence at the United Nations and does not rule out a bid for membership, according to media reports Sunday. The Vatican, a city-state, is a permanent observer at the United Nations, a status that lets it participate in U.N. conferences and deliver speeches in the General Assembly but gives it no voting power. In an interview with Corriere della Sera newspaper, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican�s No. 2 official, was asked if the United Nations was up to its peace tasks. "It must be up to the task and every one must do their part to help it assume an ever-more active and efficient role on the world scene," replied Sodano, the Vatican�s secretary of state. He added, "The Holy See intends to study the possible forms of its own stepped-up presence in that connection." Asked if that meant the Vatican might become a U.N. member, Sodano was quoted as replying: "If that were useful, I wouldn�t rule it out." ====== Now, what do you think the Vatican would do with full membership in the UN? Would it have the kind of power true nations have? It's worrying that the church is trying to squeeze its way in here. I see it as the ultimate breaking of church/state seperation; but in this case, the "state" in question is a group of states, which effect the whole world. Does this mean that the church thinks of itself as a nation now?

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12-06-2002, 06:08 AM	#2
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Oh, YES! The Vatican City-State is recognized by the UN, and certainly DOES define "itself" (sic = another damn human fiction) as a NATION & the peer of Russia, China, USA etc. This is madness ; except that that is how the UN is organized. Liechtenstein & Monaco for example are also sovreign nations. We skeptics & cynics may infer that Vatican City-State wants "in" in order to wield POWER and to have status to push their agenda = including universal condemnation/rejection of >>>> family planning, of birth control, of *women"'s autonomy ;.... and all those other great CatholicChrx dogmata. If they get away w/ this current thrust, watch OUDT! Things CAN get worse. If you'd like some data about Vatican City, look it up in a current World (e.g.) Almanac, or other. Their assertion of "nationhood" is laughable; but that's what (the fact of MANMADE) language gets you.

12-06-2002, 07:04 AM	#3
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	Bring the Pope in for past war crimes! DC

12-08-2002, 07:14 PM	#4
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Well the Holy See is a soverign nation, as established by The Lateran Treaty of 1929. I see no reason why it should be deined admitance to the UN. [ December 08, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

12-09-2002, 06:46 AM	#6
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Excuse my flat contradiction, ^^^^ Guy; but, for example, the US of A of course recognizes Vatican City as a (true) nation state == "we" send an ambassador there, very well paid no doubt; altho you have to be rich to lead a happy life as a diplomat, I am informed.... My blood still boils over this fact = the US recognition of that (insert expletives/modifiers)Entity. ( What! do I allow that a (Platonic) government is an Entity? Sorry = blah blah blah)

12-09-2002, 11:26 AM	#7
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	<a href="http://www.population-security.org/15-CH7.html" target="_blank">http://www.population-security.org/15-CH7.html</a> <a href="http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/holyalliance1of2.html" target="_blank">http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/holyalliance1of2.html</a>

12-09-2002, 12:26 PM	#8
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	<a href="http://www.cath4choice.org/" target="_blank">Catholics for a Free Choice</a> has for some time been running a campaign called See Change to get the Vatican's Observer status at the UN annulled. I don't see how they could ever be a proper member of the UN. They would find it difficult to sign up to all the instruments on human rights.

12-09-2002, 02:51 PM	#10
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	To follow up, there are 29 countries in the U.N. (including the Vatican for the moment) that are <a href="http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/area_country_desc.php" target="_blank">smaller</a> than Rhode Island (approx. 3000 sq.km). By comparison, Trinidad, Fiji and Djibouti are vast swaths across the map.

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