Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Philosoft · 04-08-2002, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
I'm just waiting for an answer. Of course, I know there isn't one without God. Please do better than that.

By the way, I agree that we give the government a purpose. I'm not debating that.

I really need to know if there is a reasonable response to this question besides that an inteligence put the purpose there.

Well, there's apparently a purpose for you arrogantly assuming your dilemma is meaningful at all. Demanding a meaningful answer to a meaningless question is no way to win friends and influence people.

Mageth · 04-08-2002, 01:19 PM

If reality points to God, then let it. Don't deny it because of you're fear of the possibility of God.

Reality doesn't point to god, it points to naturalism. That's why I switched from theism to atheism. And speaking for myself, I have no "fear" of the possibility of god. I don't even know where that statement's coming from.

DarkBronzePlant · 04-08-2002, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:


Try not to focus on how "ignorant" I am and focus on the facts. I'm just saying that it's the most logical conclusion. If there is a more logical conclusion, say it. If you can't handle the logic, get out of the kitchen (...er something)

Christoph,

You've used the term "logic" in a couple of your posts, but I'm afraid you are not employing it at all. If you want people to critique your "logic", please begin by using it. Generally, a logical assertion goes something like this:

- We know a
- Since a, b must also be true
- If b is true, then it must follow that c
- Therefore, c

or something like that. Logic is not:

- a exists
- I think b best explains a

Regards,
DBP

madmax2976 · 04-08-2002, 01:22 PM

Christoph either doesn't understand what he's asking, or is being purposively ignorant about what he's asking.

As an atheist there are numerous things that give meaning to my life. However, I will state that I see nothing that gives my life "ultimate" meaning, which is what Christoph seems to be looking for.

So clarify yourself Christoph....

Are you looking for us to answer what is the ultimate meaning of life? If so, there is none that I can see, so its an irrelevant question.

If your looking for what gives us earthly meaning, I can give you a list if you want. Just let me know if thats what your really looking for.

Goliath · 04-08-2002, 01:24 PM

Cristoph,

Quote:

I haven't established that there is a Purpose.

And that is your biggest problem. You have claimed that not only is there a "Grandiose Purpose" for mankind, but that any purpose outside of that is meaningless.

First prove that such a "Purpose" exists. Until you do so, every argument that you make on this topic will crumble to dust immediately.

Quote:

I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to think that I could do something like that when nature screams at the top of her lungs and has been for years.

I have absolutely no idea what you meant by the preceeding paragraph.

Quote:

I will never prove anything to you until you stop saying, "There is no God, therefore..." You must admit the possibility of the supernatural or you will continue to bang your head against a wall.

Cristoph, I am a weak atheist. I do not believe that any gods exist. Note that this does NOT mean that I believe that any particular god does not exist. In fact, I don't believe that any particular god does not exist.

Read that last paragraph atleast 2 or 3 times, Cristoph. Understand what it says. As a weak atheist, I make absolutely no claim whatsoever about the existence or nonexistence of any god of any kind. Do you understand this?

If you do understand this, then you know that I would not start a sentence with "There is no God, therefore..." This is because I have not claimed that no gods exist.

You, on the other hand, Cristoph, have made many positive claims--among them, that of the existence of a god. The burden of proof is completely upon YOU to prove that a god exists (or that anything supernatural exists, for that matter).

Do you understand this? You have the complete burden of proof. I need prove nothing.

BTW, I am not pausing to ask questions like "Do you understand this?" because I'm trying to be condescending, but because I honestly don't think that you understand what weak atheism is and what it entails.

As a further illustration, here is a complete list of what I believe with regards to the supernatural:

Nothing.

Now, Cristoph, you have claimed that there is some kind of all-encompassing, universal "Purpose" for mankind. Prove it! Put up or shut up, Cristoph.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath · 04-08-2002, 01:28 PM

Cristoph,

Quote:

Atheism exposes itself when it tries to say that the evolutionary process continued without any kind of goal whatsoever.

Ok, I gotta ask: why do you keep bringing evolution up? It's not as though evolution and atheism are synonymous, you know. Atheism is a lack of belief, while evolution is arguably the most solid scientific theory that has ever existed. They have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

Quote:

To admit a goal is to imply pre-existing intelligence.

I do not see how the existence of an intelligent creator follows from a universal "Purpose" for mankind. Please either provide a proof establishing the implication, or concede this point.

Quote:

However, if you believe evolution, there will be few things that you can't be convinced of (given the right motivation).

Unproven assertion, and a condescending tone, at that!

Quote:

Congratulations on your superior display of faith.

Sorry, I have absolutely no faith whatsoever.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Samhain · 04-08-2002, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kvalhion:


Actually to be more in line with the community of all life, to live and to procreate.

Not everyone decides it is best to procreate. Everyone must "live" while they exist. This can be said to be a "universal purpose" in life. Procreation, well, now were getting further into specifics of "life" in general. "Life" is to "live" or to "exist" this is the main purpose. Anything other than that is more specific than what "life" actually is.

Pomp · 04-08-2002, 01:32 PM

Christoph,

Honest question: do you understand the answers you've been given here? You don't appear to.

As near as I can see, you're operating under the misapprehension that any purpose that is entirely personal, not reflective of some ultimate Purpose, is hollow and meaningless. It is trivially easy to demonstrate that this view is false. As many of us have pointed out, our individual purposes mean something to us. End of story. If you're looking for some great answer beyond that, I'm afraid you're in for a disappointment.

This is not a new question, nor are the answers you hae been given new answers. The oldest extant piece of human literature, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of the quest of a hero-king who, in the end, is given exactly the same answers we are giving you. You live for a while and then you die. While you're alive, you make your own meaning and you're either satisfied with it or you're not.

Why, exactly, do you think that our purposes would somehow be better if, in addition to having meaning for us, they also had meaning for some transcendent being?

Goliath · 04-08-2002, 01:33 PM

Cristoph,

In your reply to Kvalhion, you said:

Quote:

I'm just saying that it's the most logical conclusion. If there is a more logical conclusion, say it.

Again, you seem to have no concept of burden of proof. YOU have claimed not only that a god exists, but that there is a universal "Purpose" for mankind. You have the sole burden of proof of said claims. We need prove nothing. We need offer no alternatives.

Do you understand that?

Quote:

If you can't handle the logic, get out of the kitchen (...er something)

Not only is this a condescending insult, but something of a projection. If this thread is any indication, Cristoph, you wouldn't know what a logical argument was if it leapt up and bit off your hand, right at the WWJD bracelet. And, as a graduate student in Mathematics, that is my professional opinion.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Philosoft · 04-08-2002, 01:35 PM

Christoph, you are starting to become something of an ass.

Quote:

Originally posted by Christoph:
Atheism exposes itself when it tries to say that the evolutionary process continued without any kind of goal whatsoever.

I guess we'll have to tell Mr. Atheism to cover himself.

Quote:

To admit a goal is to imply pre-existing intelligence. However, if you believe evolution, there will be few things that you can't be convinced of (given the right motivation). Congratulations on your superior display of faith.

No one in this thread, save yourself, has yet claimed that evolution is goal-directed. Please rid yourself of this strawman. And you certainly have quite the capacious gall bladder to claim that 'evolution believers' are gullible on a level comparable to those who profess faith in anything.

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04-08-2002, 01:19 PM	#52
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	If reality points to God, then let it. Don't deny it because of you're fear of the possibility of God. Reality doesn't point to god, it points to naturalism. That's why I switched from theism to atheism. And speaking for myself, I have no "fear" of the possibility of god. I don't even know where that statement's coming from.

04-08-2002, 01:22 PM	#54
madmax2976 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: OK Posts: 1,806	Christoph either doesn't understand what he's asking, or is being purposively ignorant about what he's asking. As an atheist there are numerous things that give meaning to my life. However, I will state that I see nothing that gives my life "ultimate" meaning, which is what Christoph seems to be looking for. So clarify yourself Christoph.... Are you looking for us to answer what is the ultimate meaning of life? If so, there is none that I can see, so its an irrelevant question. If your looking for what gives us earthly meaning, I can give you a list if you want. Just let me know if thats what your really looking for.

04-08-2002, 01:32 PM	#58
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	Christoph, Honest question: do you understand the answers you've been given here? You don't appear to. As near as I can see, you're operating under the misapprehension that any purpose that is entirely personal, not reflective of some ultimate Purpose, is hollow and meaningless. It is trivially easy to demonstrate that this view is false. As many of us have pointed out, our individual purposes mean something to us. End of story. If you're looking for some great answer beyond that, I'm afraid you're in for a disappointment. This is not a new question, nor are the answers you hae been given new answers. The oldest extant piece of human literature, the Epic of Gilgamesh, tells of the quest of a hero-king who, in the end, is given exactly the same answers we are giving you. You live for a while and then you die. While you're alive, you make your own meaning and you're either satisfied with it or you're not. Why, exactly, do you think that our purposes would somehow be better if, in addition to having meaning for us, they also had meaning for some transcendent being?

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