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Old 07-23-2003, 04:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by GunnerJ
...you keep copperhead snakes as pets?

Now that's HRADCROE.
At my old apartment I actually watched as a copperhead caught a fish from the bream beds by my deck.
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Old 07-23-2003, 04:40 PM   #22
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Why focus on mouthparts? I imagine these adults would have entire (or possibly vestigial) digestive systems that never get put to use. I might be wrong, and the metamorphosis completely removes the whole digestive system, but I'd put good money on there being some useless remnants.
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Old 07-24-2003, 04:59 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by beastmaster
So, NPM, is it your opinion that these adult mouthparts (in the orders you have identified) have no purpose whatsoever? No use for fighting, for manipulating objects, for assisting in communication through the tasting/smelling of chemicals like pheremones, etc.?
Quote:
Originally posted by Doubting Didymus
Why focus on mouthparts? I imagine these adults would have entire (or possibly vestigial) digestive systems that never get put to use. I might be wrong, and the metamorphosis completely removes the whole digestive system, but I'd put good money on there being some useless remnants.
More than likely the mouthparts would be vestigial. Although, the male dobsonfly (of the order Neuroptera) does use its mandibles for fighting over females. Some other species probably use the mandibles for grooming or getting out of coccoons, but mostly the mouthparts are small and vestigial. I would guess (in your words: put good money on), Doubting Didymus, that the digestive tract is also reduced and vestigial in these adults, although I have no idea.

NPM
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Old 07-24-2003, 06:16 AM   #24
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I was an entomologist in another lifetime, so if I stretch my memory to its very limits I can offer my guesses as to the orders in which (at least some) species have non-feeding adults:

Ephemeroptera
Plectoptera
Homoptera*
Diptera
Coleoptera
Neuroptera (pretty sure a few)
Lepidoptera
Trichoptera
Strepsiptera

That makes 8--now I'm curious to see if I got them all right! (Although I wouldn't be surprised to find a few odd species in even more orders.)

Note also that most are in the Holometabola--it seems to be a function of metamorphosis and the extreme differences between larvae and adults (I would call Ephemeroptera and Plectoptera honorary Holometabola because the transition from fully aquatic to fully terrestrial life stages is pretty abrupt and dramatic, even if it doesn't technically fulfill the definition).

*edited to add Homoptera because Duvenoy is right about cicadas.
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Old 07-24-2003, 06:24 AM   #25
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Here's another tidbit about mayflies that Oolon may find useful: they are the only (living) insects that molt after having functional wings. They emerge from the water in their penultimate instar (dun) with wings and can fly (but poorly), but then molt again within a matter of hours to become a fully mature adult that is a good flier and capable of breeding. Why not do like all other aquatic insects do, and go straight from the aquatic nymph to the fully functional winged adult????

*edited to note that NPM beat me on both counts. I really gotta start reading these things before I post! Although I do list Coleoptera, and NPM didn't. Bottom line, I think we can probably come up with more than 8 orders--there's a lotta bugs out there!
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Old 07-24-2003, 06:36 AM   #26
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Default Re: Re: Re: Entomological help please

Quote:
Originally posted by Non-praying Mantis
I do know that some adult lepidoptera have chewing mouthparts (clothes moths) and not the normal drinking-straw-like sucking mouthparts.

NPM
There are several moths that have non-functional mouthparts as adults (although oddly enough, their mouthparts go through the metamorphosis from chewing to sucking anyway--a doubly bad design!). I'm pretty sure all the Saturniidae (giant silk moths) fall into this category, as well as various members of other families (Noctuidae, Geometridae, etc.).
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Old 07-24-2003, 07:04 AM   #27
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Entomological help please

Quote:
Originally posted by MrDarwin
There are several moths that have non-functional mouthparts as adults (although oddly enough, their mouthparts go through the metamorphosis from chewing to sucking anyway--a doubly bad design!). I'm pretty sure all the Saturniidae (giant silk moths) fall into this category, as well as various members of other families (Noctuidae, Geometridae, etc.).
Thanks, MrDarwin! I didn't know there were so many species of non-feeding adults in Lepidoptera, especially a "popular" family like Saturniidae.

NPM
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Old 07-24-2003, 07:33 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Duvenoy
Um, just off the top of my head, try cicadas. We've had a pretty good 'hatch' this year and I'm finding them dying on the ground. My three resident copperheads devour them as fast as I put then in the cages.

Remarkable insects. One of our local species lives as a nymph underground for 17 years. When they emerge, they only live long enough to mate, then die, possibly from starvation. They too, are unable to feed.

A beautiful animal with sloppy design? I'd say so, although the coppers might not agree.

doov
Doov,

Check out this site on periodical cicadas. I became interested in periodicals when I found several 3 years ago. They're quite different in appearance from the dog-day cicadas I'm used to. When I found these critters, I was aware that there had been a brood emergence in SE Ohio/W Va. the year before. Was central Ohio having an emergence in 2000? Looked it up - nope, not due until 2004. What was going on? Turns out that a portion of a brood often emerges 4 years early. Some are hypothesizing that those individuals are skipping the last instar and emerging early, possibly leading to the birth of new broods. Cool stuff.

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Old 07-24-2003, 07:54 AM   #29
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Thanks Zetek! An interesting site.

It appears that I'm wrong about cicacas not feeding as adults. From the site:

Quote:
After their short teneral period, males begin producing species-specific calling songs and form aggregations (choruses) that are sexually attractive to females. Males in these choruses alternate bouts of singing with short flights until they locate receptive females. Contrary to popular belief, adults do feed by sucking plant fluids; adult cicadas will die if not provided with living woody vegetation on which to feed (see picture below of Magicicada septendecula feeding. The piercing-and-sucking mouthparts are visible just behind the forelegs).
I'm going to look for more info on this, and the next one I find, I'll check it out.

Again, thanks!

doov
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Old 07-24-2003, 08:15 AM   #30
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Quote:
MrDarwin:
Bottom line, I think we can probably come up with more than 8 orders--there's a lotta bugs out there!
But only one includes true bugs!

Peez
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