Jamie_L

Now, more details:

A tie-in to this discussion is the underlying idea in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001193" target="_blank">this thread</a>.

Not necessarily the OP itself, but the idea spawned out of it: Many Christians say first you must believe, then you will become aware of the evidence that God is real.

So, in relation to this thread, some Christians see atheists as people who refuse to take the first step (believe without evidence), and thus we are turning a blind eye rather than genuinely seeking truth.

Jamie

GeoTheo

Would it really ever be possible to distinguish a person that does not believe in God and a person that rejects God and says they don't believe in God? Would it be possible to distinguish a person who does not believe in God but wishes there was a God and a person who truly believes in God?
I think taking people at their word is a good rule of thumb just for maintaining nicety but I think it is hard not to suspect otherwise somtimes in these types of debates.
As for why I come here, I like to debate complex ideas. Many Christians don't enjoy doing that and don't appreciate me on their discussion boards.
I did used to go to some liberal Christian boards and debate theology but most boards don't get as much play as this one. I like to see quick responses.

GeoTheo

I would tend to look at it that way in the case of people who are atheists that were never a Christian or other type of theist. I would tend to think former Christian atheists merely reject God.
Once again, I appreciate that it is not nice to question peoples honesty.

GeoTheo

One thing I would like to point out about how Christians put their faith in action:
We do things, like make decisions, based on the Bible being true and God being real, and kind of see what happens. We wait for God to bless this.
Then when we feel God has blessed this action on our part we our encouraged. For example a woman may believe it is her place to be a stay at home Mom. She may feel that God is calling her to do this. But there are financial concerns that seem to be in the way. She may pray that God would take care of these financial concerns so that she can do this. Then some events seem to change, he husband gets a different job that provides the family medical benefits she was providing through her job, they get a big tax return and pay off some credit card debt etc. She quits her job and stays home with the kids and everything seems to work out. Not only that but she seems happier.
This is how We Christians are strengthened in our faith. This how God becomes more real to us.

himynameisPwn

Except GeoTheo, that the same thing would have happened if she wished on her lucky rabbits foot. To think that we, humans, could even interfere with a divine plan conceived before time, by an knowing, all loving god is ridiculous. Whether she prayed or not, if god knows all and loves all, that would have happened anyway or not at all.

She wants to be a stay at home Mom, so she gets it, but millions of people die in senseless accidents... how loving. I'd hope an all loving god would save some lives rather than help my favorite team win....

Tom Sawyer

GeoTheo,

I don't want to sound snide and you've probably heard this before, but wouldn't it be an easier explanation that the husband knew that his wife was unhappy having to work and so set about to get a new job so that she wouldn't have to? The result then would be due to the love of the husband, rather than the love of God.

It just seems to me that the same situation can come about without any appeal to a Higher Power, but merely to the strength of human nature and our desire to help those we love.

GeoTheo

Well obviously...
I am not presenting this as a slam bang arguement for the existence of God. I am merely showing how people live out there faith in God. Living out there faith in God shows that they have faith in God.

Mageth

I don't see anything that could be called "miraculous" in such a story, Geo. Sounds more like crediting god for good things that happen. Did god fill out the job application for the guy? Did god influence the IRS to give them a tax return? No. And what about the bad things? What about the many cases where things don't work out so well, where the husband gets laid off, the child gets sick, the IRS files a lien on the house, and such?

What I see in most xians is them living everyday lives like the rest of us, but saying "god this" and "god that" for everyday events in their lives that happen to all of us, like "god gave me a new job." Well, guess what, I'm an atheist, I got a new, better job a few years back, and I'm probably going to get (another) nice fat raise come December because I work hard and am valued. Do I credit god for any of this? No; I went to college, applied for jobs, learned skills, worked hard, changed jobs several times, and finally landed a great job all on my own, at which I've become good. Without actually doing such things, no appeal to god is going to get anyone anywhere.

[ October 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

miscreant

In my critical thinking class in University we called this 'selective rememberance'. Basically people remember things that seem to agree with what they already believe, and things that don't work out the way they expect they simply just forget about.
With faith it's even easier because even if things turn out really crappy, there's always the "It's God's plan" to fall back on.

I know way too many people who do this, both religious and non. Like my friends who gamble... I won't get started on that...

Miscreant

HelenM

To Christians it's not either/or, though.

Certainly a husband who loves his wife might be looking for a job that would enable her to stay home, if that's what she would like/believes is best.

But, they will be praying that God provides that new job as well as actively looking and interviewing, and if the husband gets it they will presumably thank God for providing it.

Of course atheists will see the new job as acquired by the efforts of the husband and perhaps some luck, because a God who doesn't exist obviously can't have had anything to do with it.

And of course Christians who believe God cares about every detail of their lives, will thank God for providing the new job, even though the husband did also actively seek it.

It all depends what you believe, doesn't it?

take care
Helen