Freethought & Rationalism Archive

03-09-2003, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by the_cave
You folks have finally figured out a way to drive a skeptical Catholic insane...the person I sympathize with most on this forum is believe it or not Biff, whose slamming-his-head-against-the-wall smiley is exactly how I feel right now (for different reasons...) The discussion has veered into an exchange of inaccuracies so glib and bizarre it makes my little head spin...

Ok, first of all, the SIMPLE ANSWER TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION is:

Catholic practices (and I would argue far more Protestant practices than they admit, but that is my opinion) are based on the collected traditions of the Catholic church, beginning from its very origins in the 1st century. In the Catholic church (and to a lesser degree in high protestant churches, such as the Anglican and Lutheran traditions), such practices are followed specifically because they are assumed to either have been introduced by

a) the apostles themselves, based on either tradition or on early documents of the church, or
b) their ordained successors, the bishops, whom Catholics believe the apostles granted equal spiritual authority to themselves (again, based on scripture, tradition, and the writings of the early church fathers, the leaders of the early church.)

So, a) and b) are essentially the answers to your question; the sources of Catholic practice and doctrine, besides the Bible.

So what do you think "infalliblity" in an "apostolic tradition" means? Infallible means beyond judgement and therefore in charge of your own destiny. It represents heaven on earth wherein complete freedom is attained while remaining in compliance with natural law through understanding. It is the Universal of "freedom in Christ" which is based on the particular freedom found in "he who is in Christ cannot sin" (1Jn.3:9) and is a necessary condition for a Church that is leading the flock into the seemingly unknown future.

This now means that a Church that does not claim to be infallible is organized by a bunch of people who don't know whether they are coming or going.

So now we have the Catholic church as a living church that is in charge of its own destiny and is not stuck to the tradition of the Early Church but is based upon it to further the kingdom of living God.

Magus55 · 03-09-2003, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luiseach
Did the concept of purgatory derive from Judaism? I'm not sure, but I think 'Sheol' (sp?) might be similar in many ways to both the Christian Hell and Purgatory concepts.

No Sheol is the hebrew word for Hell or pit. Its the furthest distance from Heaven. Also known as Hades. There is no purgatory in Judaism or biblical Christianity.

03-09-2003, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luiseach
Did the concept of purgatory derive from Judaism? I'm not sure, but I think 'Sheol' (sp?) might be similar in many ways to both the Christian Hell and Purgatory concepts.

Hi Luise, good to see you here.

Limbo is life outside of religion wherein we must go by our lymbic system for orientation and thus without the communion with the saints in heaven and fellowship of believers. The sacrament of Baptism enters us into the community of the faithfull etc.

Communion with the saints we have though their exemplary lives and inspired works of art. Eg. all icons and works of art have a story to tell.

Purgatory is when we "enter the race" and while in purgatory we work out our salvation. This means that if purgatory can begin on earth it must be conceivable that it ends on earth (eg. "work out" or in Puals words "I've ran the race") and if can end while we are on earth heaven must begin on earth and if heaven can begin on earth I don't see how it can begin after we die.

This now means that purgatory is the period between rebirth (when we enter the race) and ascention (after we complete the race). If, on the other hand, we never complete the race our purgation period will be with us until we die and so become our hell on earth.

A good definition of "eternal life" will fill in the blanks with regard to duration in time.

03-09-2003, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No Sheol is the hebrew word for Hell or pit. Its the furthest distance from Heaven. Also known as Hades. There is no purgatory in Judaism or biblical Christianity.

There is no such thing as "biblical Christianity" because Christians are set free from the law and from the conviction of slavery and sin (Gal.5:1-4; especially 4). If there was, there would be temples in the New Jerusalem-- which is a place on earth for those who are chosen.

Radorth · 03-09-2003, 09:24 AM

Quote:

There is no such thing as "biblical Christianity" because Christians are set free from the law and from the conviction of slavery and sin (Gal.5:1-4; especially 4).

But they need to go to confession of course, or they will suffer purgatory.

Amos, you might want to at least give an official Catholic reference or commentary for some of these assertions as you appear to be making up more stuff than any Pope I can recall. I've long ago given up asking you for scripture. It's just too darn scary to read them.

Rad

03-09-2003, 09:32 AM

But Catholics don't claim to be saved sinners but just sinners with the hope of salvation as you stated above. In fact, they don't even claim to be Christians and that is exactly the reason protestant fundies love the get their hands on them so the can 'save' them.

Rev.21:22 "I saw not temple in the city."

Radorth · 03-09-2003, 09:50 AM

I guess I'm not a fundie then, because I think most of them are saved. Starved for the unconditional love of God and faith in a living and powerful God, yes. Salvation no.

Rad

03-09-2003, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Starved for the unconditional love of God and faith in a living and powerful God, yes.
Rad

They are like the Lazarus in the "rich man and Lazarus" parable and Bible Christians are like the rich man.

Luiseach · 03-09-2003, 10:33 AM

Hi Amos!

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
Hi Luise, good to see you here.

Limbo is life outside of religion wherein we must go by our lymbic system for orientation and thus without the communion with the saints in heaven and fellowship of believers. The sacrament of Baptism enters us into the community of the faithfull etc.

Communion with the saints we have though their exemplary lives and inspired works of art. Eg. all icons and works of art have a story to tell.

Purgatory is when we "enter the race" and while in purgatory we work out our salvation. This means that if purgatory can begin on earth it must be conceivable that it ends on earth (eg. "work out" or in Puals words "I've ran the race") and if can end while we are on earth heaven must begin on earth and if heaven can begin on earth I don't see how it can begin after we die.

This now means that purgatory is the period between rebirth (when we enter the race) and ascention (after we complete the race). If, on the other hand, we never complete the race our purgation period will be with us until we die and so become our hell on earth.

A good definition of "eternal life" will fill in the blanks with regard to duration in time.

Are you speaking literally, or metaphorically?

About the religious art/icons....I have some of those on my walls. I like the deep, rich colours, and the skill with which they have been painted (esp. Botticcelli), even though I don't believe that a lot of what is depicted in the art is 'real'...sometimes art for art's sake is refreshing...just as an aside.

Luiseach · 03-09-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
No Sheol is the hebrew word for Hell or pit. Its the furthest distance from Heaven. Also known as Hades. There is no purgatory in Judaism or biblical Christianity.

Okay...I was under the impression that Sheol has at least some of the characteristics of Purgatory.

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03-09-2003, 09:32 AM	#86
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	But Catholics don't claim to be saved sinners but just sinners with the hope of salvation as you stated above. In fact, they don't even claim to be Christians and that is exactly the reason protestant fundies love the get their hands on them so the can 'save' them. Rev.21:22 "I saw not temple in the city."

03-09-2003, 09:50 AM	#87
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	I guess I'm not a fundie then, because I think most of them are saved. Starved for the unconditional love of God and faith in a living and powerful God, yes. Salvation no. Rad

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