Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Seeker196 · 10-21-2002, 04:35 AM

We all like Liberal Christians for obvious reasons.

But aren't the fundamentalists more 'intellectually honest' than the mainstream?

I mean, take everyones least favourite Christians, the Calvinist hypercalafragulistic pre-suppositionalists.

First, they've obviously devoted a lot of thought to making their 'case' air tight. It is a sort of self-sufficient philosophic world unto itself, albeit a terrifying one.

The good Calvinist will ALWAYS 'have an answer', because they can say 'Godidit and that's that. All other worldviews have ''incredbile contradictions'' except mine, and I can ''proove'' it'.

They don't retreat a step. The Bible is 100% Gods word, if the Bible and reality differ thats our fallen nature, if you don't believe in God that's because your not Elect. Right and Wrong are purely Gods whim, and nothing else, so not only is Hell, the death of innocents, 'acceptable' it is GOOD because GOOD means 'What God wants'.

on the other hand, the mainstream accepts that the Bible is largerly 'allegory' (i.e. BS) and contains much error, and pastiche, etc. The only real response a Liberal Christian can give for his belief is personal special evidence, 'I just feel that it's true'.

So my questions:
Intellectually, is there much of a difference between 'liberal' nice Christians and the fundies?

If there is, why don't the Liberals just abandon the Bible as an interesting cultural artifact completely unrelated to their vague ideas of a loving God?

Ronin · 10-21-2002, 04:44 AM

If there is, why don't the Liberals just abandon the Bible as an interesting cultural artifact completely unrelated to their vague ideas of a loving God?

This is a conundrum in which I am also fascinated.

I anxiously await the liberal christian respondents.

sakrilege · 10-21-2002, 06:49 AM

Recently I have had a few xtians tell me to forget the OT since it didn't represent the way god really is. The real nature of god is revealed in the NT.

Marduk · 10-21-2002, 03:14 PM

"Recently I have had a few xtians tell me to forget the OT since it didn't represent the way god really is. The real nature of god is revealed in the NT."

This is also what the Gnostic Christians of the first century thought. In fact they went so far as to say the OT God was Satan because he created the material world which is evil. Of coures the Gnostics were mostly wiped out by the Church that became what it is today. They fealt that keeping the OT God as Jesus' dad gave them some sort of 'historical' legitimacy.

Nickle · 10-22-2002, 02:53 PM

Sorry to chime in here without an answer, but I wanted to say I was wondering the same thing. (re: opening post)

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nickle ]</p>

Nickle · 10-22-2002, 02:54 PM

oops

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nickle ]</p>

Strawberry · 10-22-2002, 03:14 PM

My mum's a liberal xtian (as opposed to Dad, who's a scary fundie minister), and she just believes god is love. The view is that god sent Jebus to change the world, and that Jebus saved the world from those horrible things that happened in the OT because the Messiah had not yet arrived.

The liberal position is much more thought-out, IMO. They admit that things are allegorical and mistakes have been made in translation, etc., so they don't harp on technicalities. They just pay attention to the moral teachings and laugh at fundies who really think that the world was created in 7 consecutive 24-hour days and still take their kids to dinosaur museums. The Bible to them is an interesting text to study, but it's not the be-all and end-all of anything. They mostly just look at what Jebus did and how he lived his life and try to hold those moral values he supported.

Note that I'm not saying that their position is airtight. Nor do I support it, I think it's a big load of BS. But I think the idea of taking the morals of a "prophet" and trying to apply them to your life because (hopefully) it makes you a better person is much more understandable to me than taking a historical book claiming, in different words, that the book is god.

I really think the difference between libs and fundies is that the libs admit that they're just taking what they want from the Bible and developing their own senses of personal spirituality from that, whereas the fundies do it and don't admit it, instead claiming that they're right because God made them right.

Just my opinion, though.

GeoTheo · 10-22-2002, 03:58 PM

I agree Liberal Christians are too wishy washy. That's why their membership is going down. Denominations on the rise are among the Fundamentalists and Pentecostals. I don't like liberal Christianity all that much. They seem to lack balls. That's the best way I can put it.
I think their is a correlation with politics also Conservatives seem a lot surer of themselves and liberals don't. People like leaders that seem sure of themselves.

ManM · 10-22-2002, 04:48 PM

In the 7th century, Saint Isaac the Syrian wrote (in his 83rd Homily I believe), "Very often many things are said by the Holy Scriptures and in it many names are used not in a literal sense... those who have a mind understand this."

I suspect that fundies are actually farther off from historical Christianity than most liberals.

GeoTheo · 10-22-2002, 05:19 PM

Well here is my situation. I got kicked out of a fundie Church for believing in evolution, so I have been visiting more liberal mainline Churches and they seem like a bunch of weak sticks. The Old people seem the same but the young people don't seem like they have much conviction about anything. They definately don't seem as fervent. They don't look as excited. Also liberal churches are run by women. Few men show up. It makes me feel like I am at a tupperware party.

10-21-2002, 04:35 AM	#1
Seeker196 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 278	Fundies vs Lib Christians We all like Liberal Christians for obvious reasons. But aren't the fundamentalists more 'intellectually honest' than the mainstream? I mean, take everyones least favourite Christians, the Calvinist hypercalafragulistic pre-suppositionalists. First, they've obviously devoted a lot of thought to making their 'case' air tight. It is a sort of self-sufficient philosophic world unto itself, albeit a terrifying one. The good Calvinist will ALWAYS 'have an answer', because they can say 'Godidit and that's that. All other worldviews have ''incredbile contradictions'' except mine, and I can ''proove'' it'. They don't retreat a step. The Bible is 100% Gods word, if the Bible and reality differ thats our fallen nature, if you don't believe in God that's because your not Elect. Right and Wrong are purely Gods whim, and nothing else, so not only is Hell, the death of innocents, 'acceptable' it is GOOD because GOOD means 'What God wants'. on the other hand, the mainstream accepts that the Bible is largerly 'allegory' (i.e. BS) and contains much error, and pastiche, etc. The only real response a Liberal Christian can give for his belief is personal special evidence, 'I just feel that it's true'. So my questions: Intellectually, is there much of a difference between 'liberal' nice Christians and the fundies? If there is, why don't the Liberals just abandon the Bible as an interesting cultural artifact completely unrelated to their vague ideas of a loving God?

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10-21-2002, 04:44 AM	#2
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	If there is, why don't the Liberals just abandon the Bible as an interesting cultural artifact completely unrelated to their vague ideas of a loving God? This is a conundrum in which I am also fascinated. I anxiously await the liberal christian respondents.

10-21-2002, 06:49 AM	#3
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	Recently I have had a few xtians tell me to forget the OT since it didn't represent the way god really is. The real nature of god is revealed in the NT.

10-21-2002, 03:14 PM	#4
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"Recently I have had a few xtians tell me to forget the OT since it didn't represent the way god really is. The real nature of god is revealed in the NT." This is also what the Gnostic Christians of the first century thought. In fact they went so far as to say the OT God was Satan because he created the material world which is evil. Of coures the Gnostics were mostly wiped out by the Church that became what it is today. They fealt that keeping the OT God as Jesus' dad gave them some sort of 'historical' legitimacy.

10-22-2002, 02:53 PM	#5
Nickle Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 385	Sorry to chime in here without an answer, but I wanted to say I was wondering the same thing. (re: opening post) [ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nickle ]</p>

10-22-2002, 02:54 PM	#6
Nickle Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 385	oops [ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Nickle ]</p>

10-22-2002, 03:14 PM	#7
Strawberry Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Lancaster, PA/Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 627	My mum's a liberal xtian (as opposed to Dad, who's a scary fundie minister), and she just believes god is love. The view is that god sent Jebus to change the world, and that Jebus saved the world from those horrible things that happened in the OT because the Messiah had not yet arrived. The liberal position is much more thought-out, IMO. They admit that things are allegorical and mistakes have been made in translation, etc., so they don't harp on technicalities. They just pay attention to the moral teachings and laugh at fundies who really think that the world was created in 7 consecutive 24-hour days and still take their kids to dinosaur museums. The Bible to them is an interesting text to study, but it's not the be-all and end-all of anything. They mostly just look at what Jebus did and how he lived his life and try to hold those moral values he supported. Note that I'm not saying that their position is airtight. Nor do I support it, I think it's a big load of BS. But I think the idea of taking the morals of a "prophet" and trying to apply them to your life because (hopefully) it makes you a better person is much more understandable to me than taking a historical book claiming, in different words, that the book is god. I really think the difference between libs and fundies is that the libs admit that they're just taking what they want from the Bible and developing their own senses of personal spirituality from that, whereas the fundies do it and don't admit it, instead claiming that they're right because God made them right. Just my opinion, though.

10-22-2002, 03:58 PM	#8
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	I agree Liberal Christians are too wishy washy. That's why their membership is going down. Denominations on the rise are among the Fundamentalists and Pentecostals. I don't like liberal Christianity all that much. They seem to lack balls. That's the best way I can put it. I think their is a correlation with politics also Conservatives seem a lot surer of themselves and liberals don't. People like leaders that seem sure of themselves.

10-22-2002, 04:48 PM	#9
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	In the 7th century, Saint Isaac the Syrian wrote (in his 83rd Homily I believe), "Very often many things are said by the Holy Scriptures and in it many names are used not in a literal sense... those who have a mind understand this." I suspect that fundies are actually farther off from historical Christianity than most liberals.

10-22-2002, 05:19 PM	#10
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	Well here is my situation. I got kicked out of a fundie Church for believing in evolution, so I have been visiting more liberal mainline Churches and they seem like a bunch of weak sticks. The Old people seem the same but the young people don't seem like they have much conviction about anything. They definately don't seem as fervent. They don't look as excited. Also liberal churches are run by women. Few men show up. It makes me feel like I am at a tupperware party.

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