Longhorn

There's an ongoing exchange of emails in <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona" target="_blank">Mukto-mona</a> regarding issues of women's rights. I thought you might be interested in reading some of them. The name of the thread there is "Religion". Mr. Avijit Roy is an atheist male from Bangladesh whereas Ms. Yasmin Amin is a female muslim apolgetic from Egypt. Your input there will be greatly appreciated too.
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From Mr. Avijit to a different lady (she didn't respond as Ms. Yasmin Amin decided to take it up to reply):

Dear Ms. Afsarunnesa,

I presume you are a new member in this forum. I really appreciate your enquiries and healthy discussion with Ms. Bonna and Ms. Tasneem. Being a non-Muslim, I have several questions to you. I have read Quran for several times (sometimes with original Arabic) and I differ with your opinion that you expressed in the discussion with Bonna. It actually amazes me - How could a person simply deny the fact of cruelty against the womankind residing in holy Quran and consider it a word of god ? Quran clearly demeans the womankind in many of it's holy verses. Please consider the following verses :

1. Man has a degree over women. Sura 2:228.

2. Witness of 2 women equals that of 1 man. Sura 2:282.

3. Inheritance of 2 women equals that of 1 man. Sura 4.11-12.

4. Men are stronger, righteous women are obedient. Sura 4:34.

5. Women are asked to stay quietly in houses. 33:33. etc.

6. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women 4:34 etc.

7. Women are a tilt for men (to cultivate). 2:223 etc.

8. Men can marry more than one times. sura 2:3 etc.

9. Men can beat their women (wives). 4: 34. etc. etc.



Among the verses stated above, the worst is sura 2.282 (IMO). The inequality between men and women is crystal clear in matters of giving testimony or evidence or being a witness is enshrined in the Koran in this sura .

“But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember”.

How do you justify the above text, Ms. Afsarunnesa ? As par Islam the testimonies of two women is equal to one man. It means, even though the woman is a University Professor or a Doctor, still she is considered less intelligent than an illiterate male!! Is it acceptable ? The criterion here clearly is not intelligence but gender.

So, what values religion teaches to its followers, Ms. Afsarunnesa? Haven't you found that Quran is very clear that men are a degree superior to women and that they are their protectors? This undoubtedly conveys the idea that women are incapable to take care of themselves and they are dependent on men. This false image of women is further emphasized when the laws of the Sharia do not recognize women as intelligent enough to witness in a court. The reason perhaps given is that if one of them forgets, the other one can remind her. Isn't it ? But Is there any scientific study that demonstrates women are more forgetful than men? Absolutely not! All these stereotypes convey only one message to the subconscious of the man who believes those teachings are from God.

If you accept Quran as the book of God, you have to accept many irrational things. some other muslim freethinkers have already done a great job showing such absurdities in their pages (http://www.faithfreedom.org) here is the excerpt :

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9:5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that “they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter” (Q.5: 34). “As for the disbelievers”, it says that “for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods” (Q. 22: 9). Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28). Quran asks the Muslims to “strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9). The holy Prophet demanded his follower to “strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” (Q. 47: 4). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q. 4:34). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q. 66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness.

How can you disregard cruelty resides in Holy Quran, Ms. Afsarunnesa ?

You said, "One thing for sure, just the translation would lead you to misinterpret ....."

You know Ms. Afsarunnesa, It is a very clever strategy which has already been refuted many times in MM and NFB pages. Apologists generally attempt to defend Quranic flaws by following ridiculous and incogitant arguments while they cannot refute the cruelties and absurdities residing in holy Quran, such as : 1) They generally blames the translation/ interpretation, 2) some apologists say that human being can not understand Allah’s Qudraat (glory), 3) Quran has to be taken (when there is serious flaws) as Allegory/parable, 4) Quranic verses (which has flaws) are only a poetry and not to be taken as real, or 5) at least some apologists say it is "mission impossible", Or, 6) sometimes attack the messenger leaving messages by saying Mr. X or Y is not an intellectual (high quality enough) to comment on Holy Quran (for e.g. you asked Ms. Bonna her age etc....which may indicate that she is not capable to perceive Allah's glory) —even though Allah repeatedly said: "I (Allah) made the Quran in simple Arabic so that ordinary Arabs can understand it."

I wish to clarify some valid points about misconception on "translation/mistranslation" of holy Quran.

1) While we talk about the translation, we generally take Yusuf Ali, Pikthal, Shakir and Dawwod's translation as a reference who are accepted as world wide renowned translators. No Muslim ever raised voice to ban any particular translation for their mis-interpretation of any verse.

2) Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Pickthall 's knowledge of Arabic was much better than average person. All of them had also a better knowledge of English than average, and we all know that Yusuf Ali and Pickthall had better than average knowledge in English and Pickthall is also an English born person.

3)The believers who propagate that all translation is not authentic cannot be any more knowledgeable in Arabic than the respected translators like Dawood, Shakir, Pickthall, Yusuf Ali to challenge their translations as inaccurate.

4) Two translator may vary in linguistic skill in some aspects but basic INFORMATION, FACT or an INJUNCTION remains accurate (Like "4" cannot change to "3", or "yes" cannot change to "no" etc.). It means, while Quran says that men have rights to "beat" women (sura nesa), the word beat will never be turned to "kiss" from original Arabic to translated english.

5) The translations of Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Pickthall agree with one another in respect to basic information, facts and injunction.

I hope you have understood my points clearly.

Regards.

Avijit

Longhorn

This is Ms. Amin's reply. To continue reading, please go that website, otherwise copy-pasting the entire thread might be deemed as spamming in SecWeb. Again, the name of the thread is "Religion" in the aforementioned website. Thanks for reading.
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In response to
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/4977" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/4977</a>

Mr. Roy,

Please forgive me for answering something which is
directed to Ms.Afsarunnesa. I have pondered your
questions and looked at the verses you have supplied.
While I am not out to defend the Koran per sé, since I
am not a religious authority, I still would like to
point out to you the fact that one should read it in
context, meaning that each Sura was revealed for a
specific purpose, after a certain incident or for a
specific situation. Conclusions or patterns can be
drawn from there, but without rigidity, after all we
were all given a mind to use.

I would like to comment on some of your points :

&gt;8. Men can marry more than one times. Sura 2:3 etc.

This particular Sura was descended for a specific
incident and should be considered within this context,
namely a man who was raising a beautiful wealthy
orphaned girl and wished to marry her. He feared to be
unjust to her, and not to pay the appropriate dowry
due to her, so the Sura warns from marrying women and
doing injustice to them and offers in that case other
women. The misconception in the belief that it is
allowed to marry 4 wives is purely a semantic one.
Sura 4:3 clearly states that one should only marry
more than one woman IF one can be equal to all of them
and then the verse goes on to say that this is not
possible. Even if a man can be equal in his treatment
to them, he will always have at least an emotional
preference, hence equality will NOT be given.

&gt; 9. Men can beat their women (wives). 4: 34. etc.
etc.

Please read it again. The verse lists ways of dealing
with a marital dispute or punishment if you like to
call it that. First talk, then admonish them, then use
the emotional side of abstaining from pleasuring them,
as a last resort physical punishment. But the
punishment stated in this particular verse is clear as
to be humiliating rather than painful ! Humiliating
in the sense of pride not in any other sense and YET
he is not allowed to hit her face, even hitting her is
defined as to how, he is to use his flat palm and only
hit on the flesh and NOT the face, so not really to
hurt but rather symbolic.


&gt;How do you justify the above text, Ms. Afsarunnesa?
&gt;As par Islam the testimonies of two women is equal
&gt;to one man. It means, even though the woman is a
&gt;University Professor or a Doctor, still she is
&gt;considered less intelligent than an illiterate
&gt;male!! Is it acceptable ? The criterion here
&gt;clearly is not intelligence but gender.

No Mr. Roy, it is not intelligence because women are
to be educated since they will be raising the next
generation. It was asked of fathers to educate their
daughters even more than their sons. Or just educate
them, see Sura 39:9.

They were allowed to work even. Wasn't the Prophet's
wife his employer?

There were many outstanding women teachers,
philosophers, poets in the early days of Islam. I
don't want to list them all, but will just name a few
to make my point: Naffisa Bint al Hassan al Anwar,
Mo'nassa El Ayoubiya, Shamia El Taymiya, Zeinab Bint
Abdel Latif El Baghdadi, Fatma Bint Alaa Eddin El
Samarkandi, Settita Bint al Hussain Ibn Ismail El
Mahmali, Zeinab Bint Abdel Rahman El Shari, Maryam
Bint Abi Yacoub, Hamida Bint al Noman, and even slave
girls were educated and later became teachers and
famous, such as the girl belonging to Ibn El Muttarif,
forgive me if I have forgotten her name.

I am a muslim (educated) woman and I do not see it as
an insult to be taken care of by a man, IF he follows
the rules of Islam correctly in the way he treats me
as he was asked to by the Koran.


&gt;You said, "One thing for sure, just the translation
&gt;would lead you to misinterpret ....."

In spite of your very valid and good points, I do
believe that translations even if excellent are a
medium for raising confusion, please compare the
translations by looking at

<a href="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran" target="_blank">http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran</a>

As for treating women unjustly, kindly consider the
following verses :

1. A woman has a right to ask for a divorce. Sura
4:128
2. A civilized behaviour towards a woman as well as
giving her her dues/compensation after a divorce. Sura
65:6 and Sura 2:241
3. Treatment of a wife even if she is no longer
desired. Sura 4:20
4. Sparing women. Sura 2:49 and Sura 40:25
5. Making allowance for physical discomfort of women.
Sura 2:222
6. Justice in treating women. Sura 2:231
7. Women being 'mates'. Sura 4:1
8. Marry 1 woman only, since nobody can do justice and
be equal towards more
than one. Sura 4:3 and Sura 4:129
9. Dowry belongs to the woman alone and is her
possession without her husband having any rights to
it. Sura 4:4
10.Treat women kindly, always allow them to have a
will. Sura 4:19
11. Not finding faults. Sura 49:11
12. Taking a woman's word. Sura 60:12
13. Taking a portion of a woman's own wealth is
unlawful. Sura 2:229
14. Please the wife. Sura 66:1

Yasmin

alek0

I find it very sad when women themselves are defending opression of their own sex and refuse even to acknowledge that there is inequality and opression.

Does anyone know of any members of any other group who suffered discrimination (due to race, ethnicity, or whatever) who defended the unequal treatment and tried to justify it? What kind of brainwashing does it take to be unable to see that in all Abrahamic religions women are considered less worthy than men?