Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MrDarwin · 05-27-2002, 01:52 PM

I'd like to turn around the question that RJS asked in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000330" target="_blank">this discussion:
</a>

Quote:

So, assume you are the most free of the freethinkers, and assume you are living at the time of Christ. Also, assume that all of the events outlined in the Gospels (of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John found in the NIV version of the bible) happen and you are a witness to all or most of them.
How do you react?

Here's my question:

Assume you are the most devout of Christians in modern times, and assume a living person came to your attention who claimed to be God (or at the very least claimed to be delivering the word of God). Also, assume that this person performed many "miracles" similar to those described in the Gospels. And assume that on top of this, this person teaches things that are antithetical to, or explicitly reverse the teachings of, the Bible. For example, perhaps he (or she) says it's okay to go out and kill a certain group of people, or perhaps he (or she) says it's okay to be gay, or to have multiple sex partners.

How do you react?

[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

chekmate · 05-27-2002, 05:25 PM

Its hard to know whether they would crucify him (

) or burn him (

). Or maybe they will think up something new for a false messiah!

Ojuice5001 · 05-27-2002, 05:36 PM

Quote:

If Jesus Christ were to return to earth today, people would not even crucify him. They would invite him to dinner and hear what he had to say, and make fun of it.

--Thomas Carlyle

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Ojuice5001 ]</p>

Ron Singh · 05-27-2002, 06:30 PM

Darwin, I believe that this person is what Christians would refer to as "the antichrist". Since the first supposed 'messiah' will be of the devil, and the second would be the real messiah (Jesus Christ), true Christians should just ignore/repent the first supposed 'messiah'.

~Your friendly neighborhood 15yr old Sikh.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ · 05-27-2002, 08:20 PM

So, in other words, what the Anti-Christ should do is be a nice, kind "Love ye one another" guy. Then the real Messiah shows up and gets stoned. That's how I'd do it if I were the devil.

Ron Singh · 05-27-2002, 08:22 PM

Uh... No.
First: antichrist.
Then: Christ.

~Your friendly neighborhood 15yr old Sikh

John R · 05-28-2002, 01:50 AM

Ahh, so the antichrist's winning strategy is to go sit quietly in a bar somewhere, perhaps catch a film or two, and generally not let anyone know he's around.
Then when the real christ turns up everyone will go 'Aha - first messiah, pass the half bricks' and it's all over bar the bleeding.

Oolon Colluphid · 05-28-2002, 03:23 AM

So, uh... suppose one of the apparently numerous messiahs prior to Jeshua was the real one... does that mean that Xians may have been following the antichrist all this time? It would certainly make sense of the false prophesies and a great deal of history! Though he let his guard down by admitting (Mt 10:34-6): �Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.�

Suddenly it all makes sense!

Oolon

MrDarwin · 05-28-2002, 08:01 AM

So the consensus seems to be that if God (or one of his/her/its prophets) appeared on earth as a person in modern times, Christians would reject him (or her), much as the Jews rejected Jesus 2,000 years ago, if this person did not meet their expectations or preconceived notions.

Interesting, and it certainly raises the question why Jews (or anybody else for that matter) should have accepted Jesus in the first place.

Jamie_L · 05-28-2002, 08:36 AM

Or, suppose this person is exactly in keeping with Jesus' teachings, but performs no big, overt miracles. Suppose people claim to have been healed by him, but the "most devout Christian" in question has not witnessed any first hand.

Will he accept this person as Christ? If no, why not?

This is most interesting to me, because I've been criticized for saying that I need to see real miracles to believe in God. I should just believe on faith, and not demand miracles as proof.

But would a devout Christian really take someone's word for it? If not one person's word, how many? How many followers does this Christ need before it can be accepted? And if the Christian needs that mass reinforcement, how does this Christ get any followers in the first place without miracles?

Even Christ in the NT attacks the notion that miracles are required for belief. Then what is the standard? Just 'cause someone says so?

Oh wait. I know. The "holy spirit" will guide you.

Jamie

05-27-2002, 05:25 PM	#2
chekmate Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Downriver Detroit Posts: 1,961	Its hard to know whether they would crucify him () or burn him (). Or maybe they will think up something new for a false messiah!

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05-27-2002, 06:30 PM	#4
Ron Singh Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 163	Darwin, I believe that this person is what Christians would refer to as "the antichrist". Since the first supposed 'messiah' will be of the devil, and the second would be the real messiah (Jesus Christ), true Christians should just ignore/repent the first supposed 'messiah'. ~Your friendly neighborhood 15yr old Sikh.

05-27-2002, 08:20 PM	#5
Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Heaven Posts: 6,980	So, in other words, what the Anti-Christ should do is be a nice, kind "Love ye one another" guy. Then the real Messiah shows up and gets stoned. That's how I'd do it if I were the devil.

05-27-2002, 08:22 PM	#6
Ron Singh Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 163	Uh... No. First: antichrist. Then: Christ. ~Your friendly neighborhood 15yr old Sikh

05-28-2002, 01:50 AM	#7
John R Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Harrogate, England Posts: 8	Ahh, so the antichrist's winning strategy is to go sit quietly in a bar somewhere, perhaps catch a film or two, and generally not let anyone know he's around. Then when the real christ turns up everyone will go 'Aha - first messiah, pass the half bricks' and it's all over bar the bleeding.

05-28-2002, 03:23 AM	#8
Oolon Colluphid Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Alibi: ego ipse hinc extermino Posts: 12,591	So, uh... suppose one of the apparently numerous messiahs prior to Jeshua was the real one... does that mean that Xians may have been following the antichrist all this time? It would certainly make sense of the false prophesies and a great deal of history! Though he let his guard down by admitting (Mt 10:34-6): �Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.� Suddenly it all makes sense! Oolon

05-28-2002, 08:01 AM	#9
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	So the consensus seems to be that if God (or one of his/her/its prophets) appeared on earth as a person in modern times, Christians would reject him (or her), much as the Jews rejected Jesus 2,000 years ago, if this person did not meet their expectations or preconceived notions. Interesting, and it certainly raises the question why Jews (or anybody else for that matter) should have accepted Jesus in the first place.

05-28-2002, 08:36 AM	#10
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Or, suppose this person is exactly in keeping with Jesus' teachings, but performs no big, overt miracles. Suppose people claim to have been healed by him, but the "most devout Christian" in question has not witnessed any first hand. Will he accept this person as Christ? If no, why not? This is most interesting to me, because I've been criticized for saying that I need to see real miracles to believe in God. I should just believe on faith, and not demand miracles as proof. But would a devout Christian really take someone's word for it? If not one person's word, how many? How many followers does this Christ need before it can be accepted? And if the Christian needs that mass reinforcement, how does this Christ get any followers in the first place without miracles? Even Christ in the NT attacks the notion that miracles are required for belief. Then what is the standard? Just 'cause someone says so? Oh wait. I know. The "holy spirit" will guide you. Jamie

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