Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tronvillain · 06-23-2002, 02:57 PM

As I said earlier, there is no apparent reason to label those characteristics "spiritual." We do not "oppose this kind of spirituality", we oppose calling it spirituality.

Now, Eldy:

Quote:

The space between my ability to recognize truth in comparison to that of even the most intelligent horse or ape is chasmic and cosmic.

All evidence indicates that something cannot come from nothing. We cannot cite in our experience even one case of where intelligence came from non-intelligence, nor life from non-life, nor love from non-love.

There is not one instance of where self-awareness came from non-awareness. Not one.

The count among human being right now is 6 billion to zero on self-awareness coming from non-awareness.

Atheists can ignore this point, and calmly live out their life as a piece of clay (no one can do this, can he?), or they can recognize that failing to apprehend the need for a "first cause," is a great leap of faith.

In other words, it takes a lot of faith to accept a world in which they exist, and not have some logical and faithful explanation for such cause.

It's called evolution baby. Try reading a book some time, like The Evolution of Virtue, or Darwin's Dangerous Idea or Consciousness Explained.

philechat · 06-23-2002, 03:35 PM

Tronvillain:

Words are all defined by humans, so "spirituality" could be re-defined anyway people want, because it is such a vague and abstract term and is misused EVERYWHERE.

My definition of spirituality is closer to the Chinese definition of "Jing Shen Xing De", which is usually translated to spirituality in English. Perhaps some infidels prefer to use "intellectualism" instead, but I would not care either way.

Again, since "spirituality" seems to conjure up favorable impressions in people, all cultures and religions want to link that term with their ideals. For example, the ancient Greeks/Romans considered spirituality to be directly linked with the pursuit of knowledge (the ideal of Arete, or virtue), while the early Christian believed that spirituality was only possible through the grace of God and not through the pursuit of knowledge.

Again, just like the term "virtue", "spirituality" was simply a term relating to one's cultural version of "ideal behavior/thought". It is a value term like other abstract concepts and is always dependent on one's worldview.

tronvillain · 06-23-2002, 03:54 PM

I wouldn't use "intellectualism." I wouldn't use any word at all. As far as I can tell, there is nothing that needs to be labelled.

Aethernaut · 06-23-2002, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001:
If you stepped away from the two-sided debate between Christianity and materialism, and towards an appreciation of pagan supernaturalism, you would see that both humans and warm-blooded animals have souls.

Prove it. There is absolutely no evidence pointing to the fact that humans or animals have a soul. The soul seems just as supernatural and full of hoodoo as any given deity.

And, in the same line of reasoning, why wouldn't cold-blooded animals have souls?

-SK

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Schrodinger's Kitten ]

Eldy · 06-23-2002, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:
Like so many of the terms we use to talk about religion, we simply have no agreed-upon definition of what 'spiritual' means.

I understand that Eldy is attempting to define it, but I have to point out that all the points he makes seem to spring from completely material causes- which is not to say that spirituality and materiality are necessarily mutually self-exclusive. However, most of the definitions which are offered to us, by Christians especially, claim to transcend the material. Eldy, do you claim that there is some aspect of spirituality which is 'above' or 'beyond' the world of seas and cities, math and matter?

From Eldy: I am completely aware of the context and the whole of the letter of Galatians. It is one of my favorite letters. I think very much that there are aspects of spirituality that transcend materiality. This is my point.

The "fruit of the spirit" are as universal as the "works of the flesh" also mentioned in the same letter. I don't believe that there mostly bad people in the world and some good people, and then a tiny bunch of special good people, whom they choose to designate themselves "children of God," or "Christians," etc.

I see kindness, patience, gentleness, and love as characteristics of the spiritual man or woman.

All human beings, then, as I have asserted, and I believe, are both fleshly (work evil at times), and spiritual (love graciously at times,etc).

We see some of these characteristices in the higher orders of animals, but to no great degree. Not enough to refute my proposition.

Certain characteristics may have evolved (I accept evolution; I have no problem with it), but why has not the ape evolved more, as the homosapien has? Evolution says that some of them did. Why did others not?

Self-awareness, that is, the "I am," consciousness, and intelligent prediction are two things I see that are greatly lacking in the animal kingdom, even in the warm-blooded.
creatures.

Human beings can create things from their materiality, and from their spirituality, such as songs and poems and plays.

Animals have failed to create from their materiality, and evident cannot create with their spirituality, having a lack in such things.

I do hold some education, and some familiarity with the Good Book, as some would call it. And it is a good book. After the letters of the book have been in the hands of human beings for from 2000 to 5000 years, do you think that it appears to us as it was once written?

Many Christians would think so. I suspect not. But it is quite an inspirational book to me. I believe a pieceof written material can be inspiring while not being "inspired" in the narrow sense.

Eldy · 06-23-2002, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryanfire:
Eldy, those are blind assertions from a lack of understanding(and education). You're grasping for something that is not present, or proven to exist.

They've recorded a whole range of sounds from dolphins and discovered a growing language. The mirror test did prove self awareness. A dolphin observed the mirror and made bubbles and realized it was him/her. A noise similar to laughter came from the dolphin.

There is nothing spiritual about the world, we do not possess magic skills, or transcend the laws of nature.

Spirtuality could best be described as an emotion to the *common* good of man.

From Eldy: We are struggling with definitions, it seems. If the fruit of the spirit are joy, peace, love, kindness, gentleness, patience, and tenderness,then the world is filled with spirituality. Another protagonist in this string mentioned that spirituality is cultural and positive-minded emotions, or some such.

But I am saying that if we remove the horse manure of 2000 years and go to the real fruit of the spirit of God, then we get down the basic spiritual qualities of one brother-man kindly treating another brother-man or sister-woman.

This is my religion. It is all of my religion, which I describe as spirituality, since the word religion has been so over-wrought.

I can have fellowship with an atheist, who chooses not to have eternal life. That is the basic difference between all of you atheists and me. I choose to have it. I respect others' right to have life eternal, or the hope thereof. If it is not to be had, then I have no loss; I will have lived a life of goodness, truth and beauty, and with all the integrity I could muster in this ole fleshly body.

And I will have treated all men and women as my brothers and sisters. There is nothing wrong with this kind of spirituality.

Some of you are arguing with some of my old and discarded concepts, and not with me.

Yes, I believe in the supernatural. But we would have to define this term, also, to determine what I refer to with this term.

Kindly. Eldy

Theli · 06-24-2002, 03:13 AM

Eldy...

Quote:

We cannot cite in our experience even one case of where intelligence came from non-intelligence, nor life from non-life, nor love from non-love.

So you are a creationist?
And you think sperms are both loving and intelligent?

Quote:

I can have fellowship with an atheist, who chooses not to have eternal life.

You just invented a new paradox. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />
We don't believe in eternal life, so we do not choose one or the other.
If we were to choose not to have eternal life, we must first believe in the possibility of eternal life (through religion), but then we aren't atheists anymore.

Quote:

...I respect others' right to have life eternal, or the hope thereof.

Hey, wait just one minute. We don't disagree with christians because we want to steal their hope for an afterlife. When you entered this board, you must have known that people would disagree and argue against your belief.
That's a risk you took.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: Deggial ]

Theli · 06-24-2002, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:


Spirituality: The quality or condition of being spiritual; attachment to or regard for things of the spirit as opposed to material or wordly interests.

(Oxford English Dictionary)

Gemma Therese

Thanks, but that's not excacly what I was asking for.
You haven't explained what a "spirit" is yes, so the term "Spirituality" is still lacking definition.

southernhybrid · 06-24-2002, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Main Entry: 1spir�it <http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif>
Pronunciation: 'spir-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French or Latin; Old French, from Latin spiritus, literally, breath, from spirare to blow, breathe
Date: 13th century
1 : an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2 : a supernatural being or essence: as a capitalized : HOLY SPIRIT b : SOUL 2a c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : GHOST 2 d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
3 : temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>
4 : the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
5 a : the activating or essential principle influencing a person <acted in a spirit of helpfulness> b : an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : MOOD
6 a : a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back -- J. A. Froude> b : the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>
7 : a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions
8 : a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9 : a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>
10 a : DISTILLATE 1: as (1) : the liquid containing ethyl alcohol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash -- often used in plural (2) : any of various volatile liquids obtained by distillation or cracking (as of petroleum, shale, or wood) -- often used in plural b : a usually volatile organic solvent (as an alcohol, ester, or hydrocarbon)
11 a : prevailing tone or tendency <spirit of the age> b : general intent or real meaning <spirit of the law>
12 : an alcoholic solution of a volatile substance <spirit of camphor>
13 : enthusiastic loyalty <school spirit>

definition from Mirrian Webster's online dictionary

Only one definition even mentions the supernatural. Atheists and non human animals are spiritual by the most common definiton of the word spirit.

Whether or not one, is spiritual has no bearing on whether or not a god exists.

Theli · 06-24-2002, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by southernhybrid:


definition from Mirrian Webster's online dictionary

Only one definition even mentions the supernatural. Atheists and non human animals are spiritual by the most common definiton of the word spirit.

Whether or not one, is spiritual has no bearing on whether or not a god exists.

Thank you.

It seems that there is no "correct" definition of that word, only widely used terms.

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06-23-2002, 03:35 PM	#22
philechat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Mind of the Other Posts: 886	Tronvillain: Words are all defined by humans, so "spirituality" could be re-defined anyway people want, because it is such a vague and abstract term and is misused EVERYWHERE. My definition of spirituality is closer to the Chinese definition of "Jing Shen Xing De", which is usually translated to spirituality in English. Perhaps some infidels prefer to use "intellectualism" instead, but I would not care either way. Again, since "spirituality" seems to conjure up favorable impressions in people, all cultures and religions want to link that term with their ideals. For example, the ancient Greeks/Romans considered spirituality to be directly linked with the pursuit of knowledge (the ideal of Arete, or virtue), while the early Christian believed that spirituality was only possible through the grace of God and not through the pursuit of knowledge. Again, just like the term "virtue", "spirituality" was simply a term relating to one's cultural version of "ideal behavior/thought". It is a value term like other abstract concepts and is always dependent on one's worldview.

06-23-2002, 03:54 PM	#23
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	I wouldn't use "intellectualism." I wouldn't use any word at all. As far as I can tell, there is nothing that needs to be labelled.

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