Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EGGO · 07-24-2003, 03:57 PM

Why do we need to praise him? What if we're comfortable as we are now?

Jobar · 07-24-2003, 04:01 PM

So, BGiC, you and Magus and luvluv are all saying that God has no need (in the sense of a requirement) for our praise, and prayers, and offerings, correct?

Now remember, we're including the Old Testament here. Just how do you explain all the times when God was angered at the Isrealites for not praying to him? Why is anyone angry over something they don't need?

Really, isn't that incredibly infantile, even insane behaviour, if a human being does that? Name something which you have not the slightest need for, which could inspire the sort of anger Jehovah exhibits over something He does not really need- i.e., prayer, obedience, praise.

Cross Examiner · 07-24-2003, 06:16 PM

Jobar,

Quote:

So, BGiC, you and Magus are both saying that God has no need (in the sense of a requirement) for our praise, and prayers, and offerings, correct?

Most definitely.

Quote:

Now remember, we're including the Old Testament here. Just how do you explain all the times when God was angered at the Isrealites for not praying to him? Why is anyone angry over something they don't need?

Really, isn't that incredibly infantile, even insane behaviour, if a human being does that? Name something which you have not the slightest need for, which could inspire the sort of anger Jehovah exhibits over something He does not really need- i.e., prayer, obedience, praise.

Hm. Something that I become angry over yet "don't need?" Often times I get angry over injustice even though I have no discernable personal interest in the case, no personal need that would or would not be satiated by either the stay or the execution of justice, whatsoever. Wha--? For example, when I recently saw the movie "The Piano" I became angered, my sense of justice greatly disturbed unto the point of open weeping, by the depiction of the brutalization, torture and murder of Polish Jews at the hands of a Nazis occupying force. Now, these events depicted on my TV screen occurred 65 years ago, to a people who are not my people, in a country that is not my country. In fact, the depiction is nothing but emitted bands/waves of light energy received by my audio-visual cortex, processed into images/relationships/abstractions in my brain and finally value-judged as the immoral "acts of injustice" by my soul. This injustice that I "witnessed" did not really exist in the typical sense of the word! I had no personal need at stake, none whatsoever; I was far, far removed from the "reality" of these images of injustice. But I was angered.

Why do we desire justice in cases far removed from us individually? Is it because we fear that we personally must advocate justice in order to receive justice ourselves? Or is it because evil intrinsically demands justice be metered out as recompense because evil is evil is evil is evil is evil. Some decisions do not need a cost v. benefit analysis. Some decisions need not be decided by committee or have all the options entered into a decision matrix (Pascal's Wager excluded

). I knew, without pragmatic analysis or even a hint of egocentricity, that what I saw was evil, was utterly enraged by it, and that justice needs to be served to the perpetrators. The many who were not punished at Nuremberg will still see justice if God is, and I know my Redeemer lives (Job 19:25). Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord (Romans 12:19). /sermon.

But to answer your question curtly, yes, some things cause anger in the soul without indicating a personal deficiency or a lack of any sort. And if man may yet be angered by evil altruistically, God, being both Holy and altruistically loving to man, is more so. I think if there are still objections then the root disagreement is how we are conceiving need. If you define it broadly enough, then anything you desire or react to is a "need", and God is necessarily bigger than the box we try to fit Him in from time to time.

Regards,
BGiC

Spenser · 07-25-2003, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
Hm. Something that I become angry over yet "don't need?" Often times I get angry over injustice even though I have no discernable personal interest in the case, no personal need that would or would not be satiated by either the stay or the execution of justice, whatsoever. Wha--? For example, when I recently saw the movie "The Piano" I became angered, my sense of justice greatly disturbed unto the point of open weeping, by the depiction of the brutalization, torture and murder of Polish Jews at the hands of a Nazis occupying force. Now, these events depicted on my TV screen occurred 65 years ago, to a people who are not my people, in a country that is not my country. In fact, the depiction is nothing but emitted bands/waves of light energy received by my audio-visual cortex, processed into images/relationships/abstractions in my brain and finally value-judged as the immoral "acts of injustice" by my soul. This injustice that I "witnessed" did not really exist in the typical sense of the word! I had no personal need at stake, none whatsoever; I was far, far removed from the "reality" of these images of injustice. But I was angered.

Weak analogy here bud. You obviously show the NEED for justice even if it be for some one else or even just a hypothetical situation. You admit you got angry due to injustice so how does this parallel to God getting angry to lack of praise for himself???????

Why do we desire justice in cases far removed from us individually? Is it because we fear that we personally must advocate justice in order to receive justice ourselves? Or is it because evil intrinsically demands justice be metered out as recompense because evil is evil is evil is evil is evil. Some decisions do not need a cost v. benefit analysis. Some decisions need not be decided by committee or have all the options entered into a decision matrix (Pascal's Wager excluded ). I knew, without pragmatic analysis or even a hint of egocentricity, that what I saw was evil, was utterly enraged by it, and that justice needs to be served to the perpetrators. The many who were not punished at Nuremberg will still see justice if God is, and I know my Redeemer lives (Job 19:25). Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord (Romans 12:19). /sermon.

Right here you seem to suggest God needs vengeance. I do not see how substituting the words 'want' or 'desires' for 'need' change the point of the OP.

But to answer your question curtly, yes, some things cause anger in the soul without indicating a personal deficiency or a lack of any sort. And if man may yet be angered by evil altruistically, God, being both Holy and altruistically loving to man, is more so. I think if there are still objections then the root disagreement is how we are conceiving need. If you define it broadly enough, then anything you desire or react to is a "need", and God is necessarily bigger than the box we try to fit Him in from time to time.

I think the problem here is that God is said to have no needs. If God doesn't need our praise then why the fuck does he send us to hell if he doesn't get it??? The only way I'd ever hurt anyone for something they wouldn't give me is if I truly needed it. SEE THE PROBLEM HERE YET?

God has no needs. God is love. Love has needs; the return of love, the need for well being of that which is loved. Either God has needs and is love, or God has no needs and is not love, or God doesn't exist. If he has needs, he cannot be omnisufficient. If he is not love then a lot of you out there have got him all wrong. If he doesn't exist, then suddenly everything seems to make perfect sense, ahhhh, doesn't that feel better?

Inconnu · 07-26-2003, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
...these events depicted on my TV screen occurred 65 years ago, to a people who are not my people, in a country that is not my country.

Not your people? Are you not a human?

Quote:

Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
In fact, the depiction is nothing but emitted bands/waves of light energy received by my audio-visual cortex, processed into images/relationships/abstractions in my brain and finally value-judged as the immoral "acts of injustice" by my soul.

A bit like witnessing it with your own eyes isnt it. The only thing missing is the stench of death, the rest is all there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
This injustice that I "witnessed" did not really exist in the typical sense of the word! I had no personal need at stake, none whatsoever; I was far, far removed from the "reality" of these images of injustice. But I was angered.

You are not removed, it is happening right in front of you, and, you know it is real and it did happen. Even if it didnt happen exactly as you see it on your screen, you know that this is what people do to each other, a specific time reference or exact description of the heinous acts is not required.

Quote:

Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
Why do we desire justice in cases far removed from us individually? Is it because we fear that we personally must advocate justice in order to receive justice ourselves? Or is it because evil intrinsically demands justice be metered out as recompense because evil is evil is evil is evil is evil. Some decisions do not need a cost v. benefit analysis.

All decisions require analysis, not always obviously conscious, but it is analysed, always, and any action that results is dependant on the state of the paticular human doing the analysis.

Quote:

Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
Some decisions need not be decided by committee or have all the options entered into a decision matrix (Pascal's Wager excluded

). I knew, without pragmatic analysis or even a hint of egocentricity, that what I saw was evil, was utterly enraged by it, and that justice needs to be served to the perpetrators. The many who were not punished at Nuremberg will still see justice if God is, and I know my Redeemer lives (Job 19:25). Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord (Romans 12:19). /sermon.

So you have expressed a need for justice which made you angry, what was the first part of your post for?

Quote:

Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
But to answer your question curtly, yes, some things cause anger in the soul without indicating a personal deficiency or a lack of any sort. And if man may yet be angered by evil altruistically, God, being both Holy and altruistically loving to man, is more so.

The lack expressed is the lack of justice, as you see it, which if you where present at the time of the injustice and had the power to intervene, you would meet out justice, I certainly would. Maybe anger at these images is born of frustration.

Quote:

Originally posted by Billy Graham is cool
I think if there are still objections then the root disagreement is how we are conceiving need. If you define it broadly enough, then anything you desire or react to is a "need", and God is necessarily bigger than the box we try to fit Him in from time to time.

Definitions are starting to piss me off.

We all simply dont speak exactly the same language even when we do, another oversight on behalf of god?

AmericanHeretic · 07-26-2003, 07:01 AM

The christian god has no needs, wants, or desires?

Let's look at a few core bible myths and see.

1) The Battle of Heaven. The christian god allegedly made this place called Heaven where all was perfect and always will be.....but....(uh-oh) .... a great angel rose to challenge god, despite that these angels were made to worship him (which he doesn't need, want, or desire, so it is claimed). Satan received the backing of a third of the angels and god banished them all to hell, which he created just to torture them for not worshipping and obeying him properly. It is also claimed the god disfigured Satan. Pretty harsh stuff for a god purported to be above and beyond needs, wants, and desires eh?

2) Adam and Eve. The christian god needed them weak, ignorant, and fully worshipful (unlike those disappointing angels). He needed to test them to make sure they would stay that way. Along comes the talking snake, Satan (somehow he escaped hell to do this stuff), who tests poor ignorant Eve with the Apple of (symbolized) Knowledge, she failed and wanted symbolized apple-knowledge (drat! that's two species down now....), so god's needs, desires, and wants, were not met, yet again, and he had a fit, yet again, and then destroyed the Garden of Eden, gave lesser lifespans to his beloved newly made pets, Adam and Eve, and then cursed them with hardship, disease, pain, difficulty, and all of that. Pretty harsh stuff for a god purportedly above needs, wants, and desires eh?

3) The Great Flood. The christian god let the Earth grow populous and people turned away from worshipping god (by now a theme of god needing, wanting, and desiring worship and obedience has been established eh?). In his rage, he wiped out all of them (boy was he mad this time, that's 0 for 3 so far!) except for one man and his family, Noah, and of course, the animals, two by two. Noah did worship this god, and he was spared, all those who did not (and all those animals and plants), perished, leaving not even a single fossil, amazingly. Wiping out the entire planet for not worshipping him and fulfilling his needs, wants, and desires, is again, some mighty harsh stuff eh?

4) If you or I do not worship this god, he will send you or I also to the pits of hell to be tortured forever. If you worship the wrong god, same thing. If you think there is no god at all, same thing. If you refuse to live by his incomprehensible, outrightly silly rules, again, same thing. In every case, in every major myth contained in the bible, we see the exact same thing, a god so desperately needy, desirous, and wanting, that he will engage in infinite torture (hell) remove all blessings (destruction of the garden of eden), wipe out all life on Earth (great flood) in order to procure by force or threat what he needs, wants, and desires so badly, and simply cannot get enough of and cannot seem to create a species who will provide enough of.

The christian god-myth is INSATIABLE in his need, desire, and wanting of worship. What vanity! What rage!

What....myth....(thankfully....whew!).

Jobar · 07-26-2003, 12:02 PM

Well, Spenser, Inconnu and AmericanHeretic leave me nothing to add, here. BGiC, or any of you other believers- have you any theories as to why this God of yours seems so desperate for our belief and prayers?

(Ever read American Gods by Neil Gaiman?)

B. H. Manners · 07-26-2003, 03:22 PM

I see why the places in the Bible concerning a "war in heaven" where the angels defeat the devil, ect. are very strange concepts to people to people who were not raised in a church.

In the Church of Christ, we were always told that God commanded us to praise, pray, and do good deeds for him not because he really needed it,but so that we would feel better by doing it. Singing to God did nothing for him really but made us happy. We prayed because we thought someone was listening and was able to get something bothering us off out chest. I could list other things to.

It still seems to me to not make any sense though. I hated singing and never got any real comfort from it. If I got any good out of praying I am sure that a Jew or Moslem gets the same confort praying to the non-Christian version of Jehovah and Allah.

hinduwoman · 07-26-2003, 08:01 PM

Hmm, I never felt the need to be worshipped by anyone, and I don't certainly feel the need to burn people who don't think me wonderful.
does this make me more omnisufficient than God?

EGGO · 07-27-2003, 04:34 PM

It definately makes you more humane...

Or maybe I should say human?

07-26-2003, 07:01 AM	#26
AmericanHeretic Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 'Merica dammit Posts: 40	the god of need, want, desire, and tantrums! The christian god has no needs, wants, or desires? Let's look at a few core bible myths and see. 1) The Battle of Heaven. The christian god allegedly made this place called Heaven where all was perfect and always will be.....but....(uh-oh) .... a great angel rose to challenge god, despite that these angels were made to worship him (which he doesn't need, want, or desire, so it is claimed). Satan received the backing of a third of the angels and god banished them all to hell, which he created just to torture them for not worshipping and obeying him properly. It is also claimed the god disfigured Satan. Pretty harsh stuff for a god purported to be above and beyond needs, wants, and desires eh? 2) Adam and Eve. The christian god needed them weak, ignorant, and fully worshipful (unlike those disappointing angels). He needed to test them to make sure they would stay that way. Along comes the talking snake, Satan (somehow he escaped hell to do this stuff), who tests poor ignorant Eve with the Apple of (symbolized) Knowledge, she failed and wanted symbolized apple-knowledge (drat! that's two species down now....), so god's needs, desires, and wants, were not met, yet again, and he had a fit, yet again, and then destroyed the Garden of Eden, gave lesser lifespans to his beloved newly made pets, Adam and Eve, and then cursed them with hardship, disease, pain, difficulty, and all of that. Pretty harsh stuff for a god purportedly above needs, wants, and desires eh? 3) The Great Flood. The christian god let the Earth grow populous and people turned away from worshipping god (by now a theme of god needing, wanting, and desiring worship and obedience has been established eh?). In his rage, he wiped out all of them (boy was he mad this time, that's 0 for 3 so far!) except for one man and his family, Noah, and of course, the animals, two by two. Noah did worship this god, and he was spared, all those who did not (and all those animals and plants), perished, leaving not even a single fossil, amazingly. Wiping out the entire planet for not worshipping him and fulfilling his needs, wants, and desires, is again, some mighty harsh stuff eh? 4) If you or I do not worship this god, he will send you or I also to the pits of hell to be tortured forever. If you worship the wrong god, same thing. If you think there is no god at all, same thing. If you refuse to live by his incomprehensible, outrightly silly rules, again, same thing. In every case, in every major myth contained in the bible, we see the exact same thing, a god so desperately needy, desirous, and wanting, that he will engage in infinite torture (hell) remove all blessings (destruction of the garden of eden), wipe out all life on Earth (great flood) in order to procure by force or threat what he needs, wants, and desires so badly, and simply cannot get enough of and cannot seem to create a species who will provide enough of. The christian god-myth is INSATIABLE in his need, desire, and wanting of worship. What vanity! What rage! What....myth....(thankfully....whew!).

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07-24-2003, 03:57 PM	#21
EGGO Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Amerrka Posts: 688	Why do we need to praise him? What if we're comfortable as we are now?

07-24-2003, 04:01 PM	#22
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	So, BGiC, you and Magus and luvluv are all saying that God has no need (in the sense of a requirement) for our praise, and prayers, and offerings, correct? Now remember, we're including the Old Testament here. Just how do you explain all the times when God was angered at the Isrealites for not praying to him? Why is anyone angry over something they don't need? Really, isn't that incredibly infantile, even insane behaviour, if a human being does that? Name something which you have not the slightest need for, which could inspire the sort of anger Jehovah exhibits over something He does not really need- i.e., prayer, obedience, praise.

07-26-2003, 12:02 PM	#27
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Well, Spenser, Inconnu and AmericanHeretic leave me nothing to add, here. BGiC, or any of you other believers- have you any theories as to why this God of yours seems so desperate for our belief and prayers? (Ever read American Gods by Neil Gaiman?)

07-26-2003, 03:22 PM	#28
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	I see why the places in the Bible concerning a "war in heaven" where the angels defeat the devil, ect. are very strange concepts to people to people who were not raised in a church. In the Church of Christ, we were always told that God commanded us to praise, pray, and do good deeds for him not because he really needed it,but so that we would feel better by doing it. Singing to God did nothing for him really but made us happy. We prayed because we thought someone was listening and was able to get something bothering us off out chest. I could list other things to. It still seems to me to not make any sense though. I hated singing and never got any real comfort from it. If I got any good out of praying I am sure that a Jew or Moslem gets the same confort praying to the non-Christian version of Jehovah and Allah.

07-26-2003, 08:01 PM	#29
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Hmm, I never felt the need to be worshipped by anyone, and I don't certainly feel the need to burn people who don't think me wonderful. does this make me more omnisufficient than God?

07-27-2003, 04:34 PM	#30
EGGO Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Amerrka Posts: 688	It definately makes you more humane... Or maybe I should say human?

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