Talulah

I run the risk of being crucified, burned at the stake, having rotten fruit thrown at me, not to mention being insulted at putting forth these ideas, but I will run the risk to start a potentially enlightening (for me) dialogue.

I hold to a particular strand of morality that for the sake of convienance, I will label, 'Talulah's egocentric ideas of how others' should act.' Now, I recognize the fact that I think that I am right and all others are wrong, in the event that they disagree with my lofty standards of conduct, and it is my firm opinion that most others feel the same way. (And I am always right, remember that.)

In all seriousness though, I have been a part of this community for several months, and although I don't post a lot, I read voraciously. Through my jouney from fundamental Xtainity, to liberal Xtainity, to agnoticism and finally to atheism I have found myself still juging others by a standard of conduct that I myself do not even hold to. It is as if I still cling to a rather Victorian sense of propriety that is offended and yet titillated by a large part of what I read here.

To be perfectly blunt: (I said I was going to have rotten friut thrown at me didn't I?) Part of me feels that most of the people on this board are degenerate immoral sluts without a shred of decency.

However, applying the same standards to myself as I apply to those I reach that conclusion about, I discover that I too, am a degenerate immoral slut.

So, it is quite a quandry you see.

Why can I rationalize actions in myself that I condemn in others?
Why do I feel the need to judge others?
If I must judge others can't I use a less strict standard?

Well, there you have it...

freemonkey

Simply put, I think it's because you were brainwashed into it, Talulah. These things can take a very long time to get rid of. Don't beat yourself up about it, but do keep conscious of it and try to relax a little each day.

diana

However, applying the same standards to myself as I apply to those I reach that conclusion about, I discover that I too, am a degenerate immoral slut.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Why can I rationalize actions in myself that I condemn in others?

Because you're on the inside of you, and you know you're a good person, regardless of what behaviors you may occasionally exhibit. You're stuck with judging others by their behaviors, though, and they are despicable indeed.

It's the I'm-having-a-bad-day-but-you're-an-asshole concept.

Why do I feel the need to judge others?

That's a good question, Tal.

This is one degenerate immoral slut who'd like to know.

Seriously, though...I think we all judge others based upon our own ideas of morality. I see no problem with this, provided you realize that your moral code is simply different from theirs. Perhaps it would help if you tried to understand the moral code they apply to themselves.

If I must judge others can't I use a less strict standard?

Because you haven't been removed from the painfully strict "moral codes" of your childhood long enough to have thought through them for yourself yet. That's something that'll take several years--or maybe a lifetime.

Your reaction to others' behavior on subjects you've been taught are "right" and "wrong" are emotional ones based upon what your Xn parents taught you. Even if you realize that their basis for judgement was flawed, you will continue to make the same judgements you were taught until you've consciously stepped back and viewed that particular issue in the light of reason (and not belief). Then, after you've come to your own rational conclusion, it will still be some time before you will cease to have the emotional reactions you've spent your life cultivating.

d

[ July 14, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

Jamie_L

Judgement is a necessary part of life. Often, however, we extend it into places where it's unnecessary.

I judge people who murder other people to be bad people who should be locked up. I don't feel I'm doing a bad thing by judging them this way.

Everyone's moral standards are different. Most can coexist nicely. Some cannot. A religious fanatic bent on killing as many Americans as possible is following a moral code different from mine. I have no problem judging this to be a bad moral code.

It's the more subtle distinctions that get grayer.

Jamie

RogerLeeCooke

Well said, Jamie. I agree with your sensible point of view. What Talulah has brought up is a very unattractive feature of most of us: the real pleasure we get from feeling "holier-than-thou." It's necessary for our elders to instill in us a sense of shame; otherwise, we'd become sociopaths, completely indifferent to what other people think. But in some sensitive children the indoctrination "takes" all too well, and you see these children at a very early age taking real pleasure in shaming others. As I said, it's very unattractive.

Truly, there isn't much to be said about morality, any more than there is about artistic and musical taste. De gustibus non disputandum est, and one could say de moribus non disputandum est also. Except that in morality people can't both have it their way, so quarrels are bound to arise. I heartily wish people who disagree on moral grounds about a policy or action would look at the matter that way: a conflict of desires. Instead you get people like CS Lewis, for whom it wasn't enough that the Allies fought the Nazis; it was also necessary to show that the Nazis were wrong. Why, I don't understand. They certainly horrified most of the people I admire and respect, but I don't think those people were in any danger of adopting the Nazi philosophy. So what was gained by convoluted attempts to prove that God and the Universe sided with the Allies? For me it was enough that we prevailed.

diana

RogerLeeCooke:

It's necessary for our elders to instill in us a sense of shame; otherwise, we'd become sociopaths, completely indifferent to what other people think.

I'm not sure I agree that a sense of shame is necessary to prevent us from becoming sociopaths. That seems a bit fetched to me.

Why not a sense of awareness instead? Why is it necessary to make children feel shame in order to promote social values?

Please explain.

But in some sensitive children the indoctrination "takes" all too well, and you see these children at a very early age taking real pleasure in shaming others. As I said, it's very unattractive.

Children do learn well from example, don't they?

If it's unattractive in children, I daresay it's unattractive in everyone. And I've yet to see anyone intentionally shame someone else who did not take pleasure in it.

d

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

Keith Russell

Greetings:

I live my life based on the idea that--no matter what I may manage to hide from others--I still have to live with myself.

I don't want to have to induce amnesia, in order to retain a sense of self-esteem.

I haven't been around here long enough to get an opinion of the rest of you, so I'll refrain from any calls of 'morally degenerate sluts', but I will say that I never ask more from anyone than I am willing to do or be myself.

Morality, for me, is a personal method I use in order to achieve my own goals--it should not be a method for manipulating or shaming others into behaving in a way that pleases me or my own sense of propriety/decency.

Keith.