Sabine Grant

What do you mean you might have lost a friend in Sabine? Have you been persecuted to the point that you fear that any person in sight who disagrees with you will not consider you a potential friend?
Plus... it appears that we agree on quite a few things. However I do not make friends based on how similar we are.... remember... vive la Difference!

Rational BAC

Sabine---

Je suis d'accord--------Vive la difference!!!!!!!!!

Rational BAC

Opera Nut--------

None of that is really necessary you know. If you are looking for a lightning bolt to strike your head and reveal the essence of Christ---------well that probably won't happen.

But you can still be a very good Christian nevertheless.

Opera Nut

Rational, All the good Xtians I was around constantly gave me the message that I was not good enough. The choir director gave us a 45 minute speech about how our singing was "not anointed". I sat three feet in front of him and cried my eyes out the whole time, I was so heartbroken.

They also told me I was a worthless sinner. So I tried to kill myself. I can't be a Xtian because I don't believe in original sin. We have enough problems figuring out how to live on this earth, and we don't need an unearned, undeserved rap caused by a coupleof fruit munching simpletons that I don't believe existed.

Christianity makes me suicidal. It is socially sanctioned mental and emotional abuse. No thanks.

Rational BAC

Opera Nut---

I don't believe in original sin either.

You do not have to follow a very fine line in order to be a Christian. Do not believe what so many may tell you about what kind of Christian is "necessary". That is all bogus and bullcrap.

Just ask Jesus in your heart to help you and He will. And He will guide you through all the bullcrap.

Trust me on this. And for sure do not "off" yourself. You are a very worthwhile person. Jesus loves you, you know.

And I am sure a lot of people on this forum "love" you too and care for you. If only in a secular humanist way. Makes no difference-----Love is love. Whether theist or non-theist, love of your fellow man does exist.

Rational BAC

Got to go now.

"Young Hitler" is on at 9:00 on CBS on TV and is supposedly worth watching. Even the Jews say it is worth watching.

I am no Hitler fan. Actually --hope he is rotting in hell right now.

But I am going to watch it.

Opera Nut

Rational, may I answer you?

"Just ask Jesus in your heart to help you and He will. And He will guide you through all the bullcrap."


Well, that's part of the problem. I did all that already. I asked Jesus to come into my heart -- nothing happened. No life changing experiences. I was the same person I was before, unemployed and now really depressed. Didn't hear a thing from jesus or anybody that seemed to be a ghost or spirit or saint or vision. Nada, niente, zip, zilch.....

I asked and it didn't happen. There is nothing now that can make me change my mind. A Christian cannot force another person, even a convert, to have a particular subjective experience, and "having a relationship with Jesus" or "getting right with Jesus" or whatever you call it, is a personal, subjective experience. Nobody can force me to have it, and I can't force myself. Therefore, I can't embrace Christianity.

Christianity gave me suicidal ideation, a bit of wrist slashing and two weeks in the county funny farm after I decided the only way to get away from the pain of constant criticism was the permanent way out.

I am merely repeating what I said a couple of posts back. Didn't you get the message? Have I made myself clear yet? If not, I will try a third time. I thought my communication skills, honed during college and grad school, were excellent. Maybe they are not so good. I don't know.

I don't think anyone can be a Christian without accepting original sin, since that is the first premise worked from. If we aren't born sinful, then we don't need to be redeemed by Jesus' death. I was born OK the first time. I can make enough mistakes on my own without being hit with a bad rap, just for breathing, from a fairy tale featuring a snake who tells the truth and a god who lies, and a woman who gets blamed for the actions of the truth telling snake. I used to work in the court system and I have a keenly honed sense of justice and fairness. Original sin and Christianity are not fair in the least. Not at all.

Anybody who thinks Christianity is good for people psychologically should read "Healing the Shame that Binds You"by John Bradshaw, Ph.D. He is an ex priest who talks about how harmful the basic concepts of Christianity are to people. Also, how any activity can be a compulsion to prevent one from thinking about their guillt and shame, like constant churchgoing, praying, working, exercising, TV watching, drinking, etc.

We've been indoctrinated to feel bad and imperfect and not ever good enough to please anyone, (i.e. Our righteousness is as filthy rags) and we self-medicate ourselves to stop thinking about the pain caused by our society and church.


Truly a sad situation. I believe that is why many of the wounded people in our society are turning to other belief systems like New Age, even though New Age is a hodgepodge and a goodly portion of it is B.S., and Eastern Religions where they don't have a crushing burden of guilt.

Opera Nut

Rational, please read my post on page 6 of the thread "Lack of civility when discussiong religion".

That describes the kind of "help" I got from serious Christians.
Being taken advantage of.

:banghead:

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Opera Nut....yes I have seen thru your posts that you have been exposed to the worst of christianity. You are not alone in that negative experience. That treatment of a person is not exclusive to non theists or people who are genuinely seeking Christ as you did. Christians beat on each other displaying the negative overzealous tendency to want to be " the sole detainer of the absolute truth".
I advocate personaly not relying on how people treat us to pursue a relationship with God.
Some christians distance themselves from organized religion to avoid that beating. I have myself found more solace in cultivating my faith on a personal level than by depending on behaviors led by one doctrine or the other.
But I also recognize that people will fail. ( that includes me).

Rational BAC

Opera Nut--------

First of all you have been going to the wrong Christian churches. Not all are fundamentalist Christian you know. Most are not.

2nd of all--------you do not have to go to any organized church at all to be a Christian. Personally, the idea that "2 or more together" means 1000's and millions in an organized church with a hierarchy and people "above you" telling you what Christianity has to mean for you. ----------is bogus.

"2 or more" to me means 3 or 4 (or maybe a little more than that---but not much more)

Forget organized Christianity. At times to me, it seems that "organizing" such a personal concept may be even blasphemous.

If you really want an "organized" Church to belong to -------I would recommend the Episcopal church, at least a "high" Episcopal Church.

The nice thing about Episcopalians is that from their Anglican tradition they do look at things from an intellectual angle and not an emotional one.

We really can't help it. Our church came about because Henry VIII had the hots for Anne Boleyn and wanted some young nooky------so Anglicans and Episcopalians question EVERYTHING.
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PS --- Got to get off the 'puter. Bad electrical storm coming Tampa Bay area way and don't want to "toast" anything.

Later--------