Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Page · 03-07-2002, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Prince Hamlet:
I propose that the existance of an omniscient diety precludes the absolute/relative truth dichotomy.

Jeff:

Nice idea but I can't see why ignorant people wouldn't still have a subjective view.

However, you led me to wonder, from your definition, whether we would therefore be a part of such god. I think some religious creeds even claim this. In this case, god would certainly contain some internal contradictions! In the Cartesian manner "I'm god, therefore I'm not".

Cheers.

Koyaanisqatsi · 03-07-2002, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blu:
Absolute Truth can not be known to an individual because an individual can never know simultaneously what it is like to be a fish (and all different kind, a bird (all different kinds), a mammal (from rat to gorilla), and the experiences of being both man and woman, an America, an African, a European, an Asian, and all the other types of races of human beings on the earth. It isn't within the capacity of the human to be all of these things all at one, to experience life as all of these things all at once.

I know many Eastern philosophers who strongly disagree with you.

Blu · 03-07-2002, 10:39 AM

This is another thing that just came to me:

There are systems within spirituality as well. Let's propose for a minute that there is a soul, and a God. Let's view these aspects in terms of systems.

The beginning form of these Energies (proposing the Soul, and God is mass energy) would be Quantum Mechanic's "Strings" then to the quarks, then eventually to the electrons and protons...

Then we get a little personal. The neurons in the brain would be the next system of energy.... if we are impersonal than the next system would be radiation or light waves...sound waves... etc.

On a personal level, the next system after neurons of the brain would be the unique configuration of neurons in each individual brain which may make up personality, how you percieve your world comes from experience and these experiences governs what parts of the brain are more active.....This all leads to individual consciousness (higher form of reasoning)... Consciousness leads to Soul.... the Soul (energy system may be a collection of lifetimes if there is reincarnation).... The Soul leads to God or Universe which is the all encompassing system housing all souls, all consciousness, all personalities, all neurons of the brain, all light waves and all forms of radiation, all electrons and protons, all quarks, and finally all Strings.....

This also would tell you why "God" can't be Conscious because consciousness is only a sub-system within the Absolute System.... But wait a minute... To complicate matters further, we can also say because all sub-forms of energy are made up of the WHOLE ABSOLUTE SYSTEM then we can also say, A String (Quantum Mechanics) is God but not all of God; A Quark is God, but only a microcosm; Lightwaves is God but still only the microcosm, Consciousness is God but yet a microcosm, Soul is God as well but still only a microcosm....

Does this sound weird to you? Because if this was true it would be like saying each tiny microrganism within your body and on your skin is You.

Think about all of this for a minute and you find your brain ready to explode!

Draygomb · 03-07-2002, 10:42 AM

Blu

You're talking about Total Absolute Truth otherwise known as omniscience. But even Omniscience is no guarantee that you would have any power to change anything.

On a side note it can be helpful to other people if you to stick to the standard definitions of words and define any new words you'ld like to use.

John Page · 03-07-2002, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:


I know many Eastern philosophers who strongly disagree with you.

more info please.

Blu · 03-07-2002, 10:51 AM

Not Prince Hamlet and John Page:

Reflect on thinking in terms of Systems.

There is relative truth... let me explain in metaphor...

Your body is an absolute lets say..... Your body is made up of systems that make the body function.... Each system has a specialized function. The Cardiovascular system is made up of Heart and the heart is a little sub-system too... The heart works because of arteries and valves etc. In that case, the arteries and valves would be "relative." And each of your bodies systems are made up of sub-systems as well.

Relative Truth would be a sub-system.... Each thought would be a very small, minute microcosm of Absolute Truth...

Draygomb · 03-07-2002, 11:09 AM

Not Hamlet

Relative truth would remain relative to the believer of that truth but god would have absolute knowledge that the relative truth was held by the believer.

A has relative Truth B. God has Absolute Truth C. C = the truth that A believes B. God's belief is still absolutely true even though it is about a false truth.

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Draygomb ]

Blu · 03-07-2002, 11:11 AM

MassAtheist says:

Of course I believe in the universe. If God == Universe == Absolute Truth, then why introduce new terms ("God", "Absolute Truth") for something that already has a name, "universe"?

Blu says:

Just because something has many names does that make it different? Everyone has their own name but we are all human.

When religion began calling this aspect "God" a very very long time ago....did they even have the word Universe?

My first thought would prompt me to answer, "no."

Blu · 03-07-2002, 11:16 AM

Draygomb says:

A has relative Belief B. God has Absolute Truth C. C = the truth that A believes B. God's belief is still absolutely true even though it is about a false belief.

Blu says:

If an individual is A and all belief is B. Then Absolute truth would be A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z.

Human beings would only know B but humans also do not know all there is to know. Let's say Science is S but S is made up of sub groups of science than a human being would know B and S.... But wait human know other things...

We can go on and on... It is what fuels this whole issue...IT'S GREAT!!!!

Draygomb · 03-07-2002, 11:17 AM

From my prespective God the Universe and Truth are all very different.

03-07-2002, 11:09 AM	#27
Draygomb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Harrisburg, Pa Posts: 3,251	Not Hamlet Relative truth would remain relative to the believer of that truth but god would have absolute knowledge that the relative truth was held by the believer. A has relative Truth B. God has Absolute Truth C. C = the truth that A believes B. God's belief is still absolutely true even though it is about a false truth. [ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Draygomb ]</p>

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03-07-2002, 10:39 AM	#23
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	This is another thing that just came to me: There are systems within spirituality as well. Let's propose for a minute that there is a soul, and a God. Let's view these aspects in terms of systems. The beginning form of these Energies (proposing the Soul, and God is mass energy) would be Quantum Mechanic's "Strings" then to the quarks, then eventually to the electrons and protons... Then we get a little personal. The neurons in the brain would be the next system of energy.... if we are impersonal than the next system would be radiation or light waves...sound waves... etc. On a personal level, the next system after neurons of the brain would be the unique configuration of neurons in each individual brain which may make up personality, how you percieve your world comes from experience and these experiences governs what parts of the brain are more active.....This all leads to individual consciousness (higher form of reasoning)... Consciousness leads to Soul.... the Soul (energy system may be a collection of lifetimes if there is reincarnation).... The Soul leads to God or Universe which is the all encompassing system housing all souls, all consciousness, all personalities, all neurons of the brain, all light waves and all forms of radiation, all electrons and protons, all quarks, and finally all Strings..... This also would tell you why "God" can't be Conscious because consciousness is only a sub-system within the Absolute System.... But wait a minute... To complicate matters further, we can also say because all sub-forms of energy are made up of the WHOLE ABSOLUTE SYSTEM then we can also say, A String (Quantum Mechanics) is God but not all of God; A Quark is God, but only a microcosm; Lightwaves is God but still only the microcosm, Consciousness is God but yet a microcosm, Soul is God as well but still only a microcosm.... Does this sound weird to you? Because if this was true it would be like saying each tiny microrganism within your body and on your skin is You. Think about all of this for a minute and you find your brain ready to explode!

03-07-2002, 10:42 AM	#24
Draygomb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Harrisburg, Pa Posts: 3,251	Blu You're talking about Total Absolute Truth otherwise known as omniscience. But even Omniscience is no guarantee that you would have any power to change anything. On a side note it can be helpful to other people if you to stick to the standard definitions of words and define any new words you'ld like to use.

03-07-2002, 10:51 AM	#26
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	Not Prince Hamlet and John Page: Reflect on thinking in terms of Systems. There is relative truth... let me explain in metaphor... Your body is an absolute lets say..... Your body is made up of systems that make the body function.... Each system has a specialized function. The Cardiovascular system is made up of Heart and the heart is a little sub-system too... The heart works because of arteries and valves etc. In that case, the arteries and valves would be "relative." And each of your bodies systems are made up of sub-systems as well. Relative Truth would be a sub-system.... Each thought would be a very small, minute microcosm of Absolute Truth...

03-07-2002, 11:11 AM	#28
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	MassAtheist says: Of course I believe in the universe. If God == Universe == Absolute Truth, then why introduce new terms ("God", "Absolute Truth") for something that already has a name, "universe"? Blu says: Just because something has many names does that make it different? Everyone has their own name but we are all human. When religion began calling this aspect "God" a very very long time ago....did they even have the word Universe? My first thought would prompt me to answer, "no."

03-07-2002, 11:16 AM	#29
Blu Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In this Universe Posts: 199	Draygomb says: A has relative Belief B. God has Absolute Truth C. C = the truth that A believes B. God's belief is still absolutely true even though it is about a false belief. Blu says: If an individual is A and all belief is B. Then Absolute truth would be A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z. Human beings would only know B but humans also do not know all there is to know. Let's say Science is S but S is made up of sub groups of science than a human being would know B and S.... But wait human know other things... We can go on and on... It is what fuels this whole issue...IT'S GREAT!!!!

03-07-2002, 11:17 AM	#30
Draygomb Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Harrisburg, Pa Posts: 3,251	From my prespective God the Universe and Truth are all very different.

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