Freethought & Rationalism Archive

m00ner · 03-01-2003, 08:16 AM

The other night I was thinking to myself about what it would be like for a person to die. It's obvious that Heaven and Hell are out of the question, simply because the idea of either of them is ridiculous, so when a person dies, they just die.

Eventually, I'm sure that as humans, we'll have the technological power to reincarnate the dead, as well as the technological power to inhabit different planets and galaxies. So no matter how many people we bring back from the dead, there will always be room for them.

Think about it. There could be a planet, or even a galaxy, for people that were executed, convicted felons, or just plain bad guys, to inhabit, with no way out of there but time. There could be planets for us, regular people, to inhabit and be able to acheive a certain type of Nirvana with, or just all-around happiness. And because all diseases and illnesses will eventually be able to be cured and taken care of, the idea of death will be out of the question.

It could be a society in which everyone was treated with respect, no one put anyone down for being different, and everyone was at peace. No, not socialism, not anarchism, not capitalism, it would be a new kind of government, one that exists, but would be apart of everyone without a leader of any kind where everyone made decisions based on other people. No, not communism, either.

Does anyone else catch my drift? I mean, the idea of a person being dead is obvious, but DNA and memory will be able to be cloned, or possibly pieced back together.

MyKell · 03-01-2003, 08:19 AM

Do you even have the slightest idea of what a memory actually is? Let alone clone it!!!

m00ner · 03-01-2003, 08:25 AM

Hey now, no need to get your panties in a bunch.

Memories are recollections of the past that are remembered through connections in the brain.

ex-xian · 03-01-2003, 08:37 AM

Well, yesterday on NPR, they were interviewing the discovers of the fact that DNA is a double helix. They were asked what they thought the biggest problem to be solved in biology right now is. They both agreed that it is the nature of memory. We have some good hypotheses regarding memory, but we have no real understanding.

Also, unless one is an aristotelian-minded dualist (of which I think there are none), cloning mind would be impossible.

MyKell · 03-01-2003, 08:40 AM

Ok well,
I'm not trying to be aggressive or anything, but you obviously pulled that definition out of a website or something.
Anyway, we do not have a formulation of how "non-representational" memories of human beings (as opposed to a representational memory of a Turing Machine) are being stored. I mean in a molecular/biological sense. The prevailing mechanism for the molecular basis of memory is LTP/LTD which is nothing but an in vitro technique used to change the signaling on synapses. Now, I do agree that LTP has taught us alot about the molecular mechanism of synaptic strengthening, but I'm not a big fan of the argument that says LTP is memory. Alot of times, transgenics with abnormal LTP have normal learning and memory.
The point is, memories rely on synaptic strengthening and weakening but there is no reason to believe that synaptic strengthening and weakening is memory. There are many arenas of brain sciences still anexplored. Until the day that we have a molecular mechanism for "memory formation" that is coherent and informative, one can say that it could be reproduced on a machine or something. That's the best claim I can make so far.
Now, I don't think any intellectual human being can relate that to something like raising the dead. This is better discussed under the Witchcraft/Black magic discussion forum.

m00ner · 03-01-2003, 08:45 AM

No, I didn't get that definition out of a website. I just used really big words.

What about if a person is cryogenically frozen? Won't they be able to just unfreeze them in the future and cure whatever diseased they might have?

MyKell · 03-01-2003, 08:45 AM

Did you pull that thought of planets for felons and criminals out of Jet Li's movie "The One"?

MyKell · 03-01-2003, 08:52 AM

Ok a lot of science fiction going on, you better take this post somewhere else..
Cryogenic freezing has never been tried and worked. We probably can only do that for bacteria for the time being.
Even if it does work, and the cellular and molecular mechanisms that give rise to your memories are still intact, then I would suspect that you'll still be you

But in the case were someone is dead, the system reaches thermodynamic equilibrium and the biological information is lost at levels much inferior to those that give rise to "The self".
YOU/Your self/your synapses or whatever you want to think of yourself as, is the product of both your genes and the environment. There is absolutely no way to reproduce those conditions together. I mean, identical twins are essentially clones but by no means are the same person.
It is much more complicated than you think. Memory is not just a thing that you can copy... It's a process

03-01-2003, 08:55 AM

If political philosophy does not evolve and take firm root, I seriously doubt our species will last two more centuries.

excreationist · 03-01-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MyKell
....The point is, memories rely on synaptic strengthening and weakening but there is no reason to believe that synaptic strengthening and weakening is memory.....

Well in artificial neural networks the memories (the learnt patterns) are stored as the weightings in the neurons... (sorry I'm a bit vague) - although more is needed to encode and decode those memories.
Our brain also uses gas for learning/recalling patterns - and these have been simulated - they're called gasnets. They are similar to neural networks except that some of the weightings are fuzzy.
So anyway, I think that the weightings of neurons, however they are implemented in the brain, are what memory is - though it isn't the complete system - like how hard-disk drives or RAM chips can be considered memory, but they need an encoding and decoding mechanism to be useful.

03-01-2003, 08:16 AM	#1
m00ner Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: St. Paul Posts: 180	The Future Of Life The other night I was thinking to myself about what it would be like for a person to die. It's obvious that Heaven and Hell are out of the question, simply because the idea of either of them is ridiculous, so when a person dies, they just die. Eventually, I'm sure that as humans, we'll have the technological power to reincarnate the dead, as well as the technological power to inhabit different planets and galaxies. So no matter how many people we bring back from the dead, there will always be room for them. Think about it. There could be a planet, or even a galaxy, for people that were executed, convicted felons, or just plain bad guys, to inhabit, with no way out of there but time. There could be planets for us, regular people, to inhabit and be able to acheive a certain type of Nirvana with, or just all-around happiness. And because all diseases and illnesses will eventually be able to be cured and taken care of, the idea of death will be out of the question. It could be a society in which everyone was treated with respect, no one put anyone down for being different, and everyone was at peace. No, not socialism, not anarchism, not capitalism, it would be a new kind of government, one that exists, but would be apart of everyone without a leader of any kind where everyone made decisions based on other people. No, not communism, either. Does anyone else catch my drift? I mean, the idea of a person being dead is obvious, but DNA and memory will be able to be cloned, or possibly pieced back together.

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03-01-2003, 08:19 AM	#2
MyKell Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Amman, Jordan Posts: 258	Do you even have the slightest idea of what a memory actually is? Let alone clone it!!!

03-01-2003, 08:25 AM	#3
m00ner Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: St. Paul Posts: 180	Hey now, no need to get your panties in a bunch. Memories are recollections of the past that are remembered through connections in the brain.

03-01-2003, 08:37 AM	#4
ex-xian Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: :noitacoL Posts: 4,679	Well, yesterday on NPR, they were interviewing the discovers of the fact that DNA is a double helix. They were asked what they thought the biggest problem to be solved in biology right now is. They both agreed that it is the nature of memory. We have some good hypotheses regarding memory, but we have no real understanding. Also, unless one is an aristotelian-minded dualist (of which I think there are none), cloning mind would be impossible.

03-01-2003, 08:40 AM	#5
MyKell Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Amman, Jordan Posts: 258	Ok well, I'm not trying to be aggressive or anything, but you obviously pulled that definition out of a website or something. Anyway, we do not have a formulation of how "non-representational" memories of human beings (as opposed to a representational memory of a Turing Machine) are being stored. I mean in a molecular/biological sense. The prevailing mechanism for the molecular basis of memory is LTP/LTD which is nothing but an in vitro technique used to change the signaling on synapses. Now, I do agree that LTP has taught us alot about the molecular mechanism of synaptic strengthening, but I'm not a big fan of the argument that says LTP is memory. Alot of times, transgenics with abnormal LTP have normal learning and memory. The point is, memories rely on synaptic strengthening and weakening but there is no reason to believe that synaptic strengthening and weakening is memory. There are many arenas of brain sciences still anexplored. Until the day that we have a molecular mechanism for "memory formation" that is coherent and informative, one can say that it could be reproduced on a machine or something. That's the best claim I can make so far. Now, I don't think any intellectual human being can relate that to something like raising the dead. This is better discussed under the Witchcraft/Black magic discussion forum.

03-01-2003, 08:45 AM	#6
m00ner Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: St. Paul Posts: 180	No, I didn't get that definition out of a website. I just used really big words. What about if a person is cryogenically frozen? Won't they be able to just unfreeze them in the future and cure whatever diseased they might have?

03-01-2003, 08:52 AM	#8
MyKell Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Amman, Jordan Posts: 258	Ok a lot of science fiction going on, you better take this post somewhere else.. Cryogenic freezing has never been tried and worked. We probably can only do that for bacteria for the time being. Even if it does work, and the cellular and molecular mechanisms that give rise to your memories are still intact, then I would suspect that you'll still be you But in the case were someone is dead, the system reaches thermodynamic equilibrium and the biological information is lost at levels much inferior to those that give rise to "The self". YOU/Your self/your synapses or whatever you want to think of yourself as, is the product of both your genes and the environment. There is absolutely no way to reproduce those conditions together. I mean, identical twins are essentially clones but by no means are the same person. It is much more complicated than you think. Memory is not just a thing that you can copy... It's a process

03-01-2003, 08:55 AM	#9
The Insomniac Guest Posts: n/a	If political philosophy does not evolve and take firm root, I seriously doubt our species will last two more centuries.

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