Theli

If god knows the most correct answer to any question asked, then what happens if his answer require a word not present in our language?
Words are based on concepts and concepts are very limited and vague in describing reality.
So, does god only know the vague answer to any question asked?
And can knowledge be based on other than concepts and interpretations?

This might not be a problem, just need some clarity in it.

Marlowe

I'll go at this, but I must point out that you're assuming a personified God - a god that can be spoken to in language. I would say God does not "know" a correct answer - god is a correct answer, and no, that correct answer is probably not something that can be expressed in words. In the mystical traditions of many religions discussions of god begin with the idea that god is beyond words, utterly beyond limited human conception. Take Taosim - "The Tao that can be named, is not the Tao."

Jamie_L

If God is omnipotent, he doesn't need language to communicate with us. He can make us understand, even if that means reaching into our brains and monkeying with things. That's what gods can do.

Except, of course, that there are no gods.

Jamie

Theli

A was refering to the christian god, that is very much viewed as a personal god. In short, a god you can talk to, a god that can communicate to humans.
You seem to have made a strange claim here, are you saying that "truth" can be refered to as a thing?
It's a typical semantic I've heard before, and as far as my experience it either don't mean anything, or the person making the claim doesn't know what it means.
Aswell as being "beyond words", and "beyond this" and "beyond that". What does beyond mean anyway?


Jamie_L...
Take for instance a small rock, our minds couldn't possibly carry enough information to know everything about that. So every claim made about the rock, or every peice of information must be limited and vague and based on the beings own perception.
You could ask god what color the rock has, but the information you would recieve would only be god's subjective view on it.
Hence there is no absolute one truth, so how can any being know the one truth?


...or can god be wrong?

Jamie_L

I'm not sure why I'm arguing about the properties of something I don't believe in, but...

Again, if God is omnipotent, then he can change our brains so that it can handle any concept he wants it to handle. He may choose to deny us full access to the truth becuase he doesn't want to monkey with our brains, but that's his choice. If he's omnipotent, he can do it.

Jamie

Marlowe

I was trying to speak in the semantics you began with - in short to talk to you using your language. Truth is not a thing, that is, not one thing. I think of truth more as an experience. As for 'beyond words' it means divinity is mystery and mystery cannot be expressed adequately in words. This is a common religious idea, for example;

From the Upanishads:

"It is other, indeed, than the known
And, moreover, above the unknown!"

From the Tao Te Ching:

"The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao"

From Eastern Orthodox mystic Symeon:

"God, the cause of all, is One... That One is not such as are visible things. "

From Christian mystic Meister Ekhart:

"Or if I say that "God exists", this is also not true. He is being beyond being: he is a nothingness beyond being. Therefore St. Augustine says: "The finest thing that we can say of God is to be silent concerning him from the wisdom of inner riches." Be silent therefore, and do not chatter about God, for by chattering about him, you tell lies and commit a sin. If you wish to be perfect and without sin, then do not prattle about God. Also you should not wish to understand anything about God, for God is beyond all understanding. A master says: If I had a God that I could understand, I would not regard him as God. If you understand anything about him, then he is not in it, and by understanding something of him, you fall into ignorance... "

I hope that helps you understand what I meant by 'beyond this' and 'beyond that'.

Infidelettante

To say that words do not describe reality is not true. Most of us have a pretty good idea of what constitutes reality I think. And most words are in fact not based on concepts. They refer metaphorically to objects. Tree. foot. river. spoon.
A word which has a purely conceptual basis would be God. To assume that God is bound by the constraints of language shows a lack of knowledge about God. And yes, knowledge can exist apart from concepts and interpretatios and even words. And I would say that this is a problem...for you.

JT

Theli

I said that god cannot state the one true answer to any question asked. Because there is no one true answer to any question. And if he would answer a question in our language then he is bound by it. This is sort of off-topic though.
Words, perhaps. But concepts or interpretations... no. You can have memories that are devoid of concepts, but memory is not knowledge. There's a difference there.

Theli

Do you mean that truth is a feeling or sensation? That a person "feels" that a statement is true or false?
Ok.
I have no idea why you use the word "beyond", I mean I don't think lacking knowledge is something to value.

Marlowe

We may be speaking of different kinds of truth. If you mean logical assertions of whether something is true or false, then no, one does not "feel" whether something is true. It is deduced from logical processes. However, the idea that God is something that can be proven or disproven using logical means is a fallacy produced by historical circumstance that comes from the conjunction of Greek philosophy and Judeo-Christian religion in Western society. When I speak of truth as an experience - I mean an experience of the truth of living. The experience of living is not purely rational. It involves a great deal more than logic.

I have no idea why you think the use of the word "beyond" means lacking knowledge especially since I used it in the context of beyond words. That is, some knowledge is inexpressable, which is not the same as unknowable.