Typhon

Is god probable?

This is a shameless spin-off from the thread, "Is God Possible." Personally, I hold the existence of god and gods to be possible, just as I hold the existence of unicorns, faeries, and other likely 100% fanciful and imaginary beings to be possible.

It is indeed possible that some sort of god-like being exists. However, based on our collective exploration and observation of the universe, it seems increasingly improbable.

Personal, petty household styled gods like Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, and others, are simply so unlikely and far-fetched, based on the best evidence we can gather, that I feel no need to even consider them anymore, from a practical point of view. Even the much more impersonal gods in the style of Deists and similar traditions, while are more likely by comparison, remain long shots.

The case for gods and the supernatural is weak at best. With the further advancement of human knowledge and our expanded understanding of the universe, the ancient certainty that man once had in the gods he created, can no longer be supported. Among groups and individuals where either lack of education, wide spread and early indoctrination, and/or desperate faith born out of strong emotional needs and wants, blinds the faithful to this, religion prospers. However, shine the light of evidential probability on the question of god, and we find almost nothing there to support it, and much there to suggest that it is all just a creation of the mind of man, no different perhaps from any other fictional construct.

.T.

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

Jobar

Typhon, I think you have to specify which God you are referring to before you can attempt to assign a probability. And of course we have no accurate specifications for *any* god, since there is no evidence for any of them. Perhaps we can assign relative probabilities- but I am not even sure of that.

I have said before that I think some sort of unitary infinite exists- call it the Universe, Multiverse, Tao, God- but I am fully aware that talking about such a thing or being is impossible at this point, and perhaps ever. Words are dualistic and do not lend themselves to discussing unities...

Jayhawker Soule

No.

Philip Osborne

When you say you think that God's existence is "possible," could you clarify what you mean? We just had a discussion on this in the "Can you name one sound theistic argument?" thread. Are you referring to possibility in the strict sense of modal logic, or mere epistemic probability, in the sense that for all we know, God might exist?

Tom Sawyer

I'd have to say that the answer is No.

The probabilty of anything is based upon the evidence that supports it and the validity of that evidence. If you say that it is probable that it will rain tommorrow, that can be based on legitimate facts, like satelite data and the like, or based on arbitrary, ill-defined criteria like my old war wound tends to itch before it rains. The first is a valid piece of evidence upon which to calculate a probablity, the second is not.

I know of no solid piece of evidence upon which to calculate the probability of God existing, so without any data, I'd have to put the probability at zero.

Typhon

What I mean to say is that I can't prove that some sort of god doesn't exist. I can't however prove that unicorns don't exist either, so I have never found this is to be an issue that seemed sufficient to base belief in a god or gods upon.

Furthermore, I admit that the typical canonical god of most Christian sects, to use a well known example, seems so unlikely as to approach out-right impossibility. I think that a good case can be argued in this instance, that such a god, with such and such attributes, and such and such nature, does not appear possible or consistent, based on both logic and the actual available evidence.

However, I can intellectually agree that many other potential types of gods, may indeed be possible. Such an example would be a god who existed outside the universe or even somewhere else in the universe, but who didn't care at all about being discovered, or in fact used their god-like powers to avoid all such detection. This is just an example, but I would have to say this one is at least not in direct contradiction to what we've been able to observe about the universe. A literal take on the Christian god however, or the gods of the ancient Greeks or Romans for that matter, does appear to directly and often problematically go against what we know to be the state of affairs, based on our best observations and experiments.

A Deist or watchmaker god might be possible as well. Some aware, creative force that planned out the universe in advance (to unfold through naturalistic causes and effects, resulting in thus, a purely naturalistic observed universe) and kick started the whole thing pre-Big Bang or even pre-Big Splat (from string theory) or even pre-pre-pre all this. Such a being might exist, but leave no mark or trace of its existence, and thus, be extremely hard to discern in the universe or beyond.

Yet, from a practical standpoint, this becomes pure speculation, as there is no more evidence for this kind of god than there is for one of the personal household types like Yahweh, Ra, Odin, or Marduk.

This is why I remain an atheist. No evidence for, and hence no reason to believe in, a god or gods.

.T.

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

Automaton

The God of traditional theism has a probability of exactly 0, considering that in no possible world does this being actualize itself, for its core, essential attributes exclude eachother, and many are simply incoherent (please someone tell me what the heck a "perfect being" is?)

Starspun

I think unicorns are possible, without the mystical aspect of their mythology. Just not here on Earth. Perhaps on another world in a different galaxy.
God? Less chance than a unicorn, I would wager.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Typhon,

Out of curiosity...what would constitute evidence for you personally?


SOMMS

Typhon

SOMMS,

That's a good question. I've remarked on this in previous threads. I am a skeptic, and so it takes considerable evidence for considerable claims. However, I am not infinitely skeptical. A selection of credible evidence that suggested that an aware, active creator had its hand in the design and origins of the universe would be a good start. Evidence that such a god cared and was interesting in communicating with us, would be necessary for most of the Christian type deities IMO. Evidence would need to be repeatable, understandable, observable, recordable, be able to be studied and reviewed by our best scientific minds, and the results up for stringent peer review, for a start.

Frankly, I've never seen any evidence of a credible sort at all.

I'd like to ask you SOMMS, who I know to be a theist of some sort, what is the evidence if any which you have based your own belief in gods or god? I'd be honestly curious what it was and how valid you and others find it to be.

If you care to share yours with us, might you reply <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000496" target="_blank">here</a>?

Thanks in advance,

.T.

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>