Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ApostateAbe · 04-18-2003, 11:14 PM

Dr. Hugh Ross is a creationist who accepts the Big Bang theory but not biological evolution. He is the founder/president of Reasons to Believe.

Now he is paying the University of Washington a visit next Wednesday evening. His fliers notify,

"Lecture format followed by open-microphone Question & Answer
Bring your toughest questions for Dr. Ross.
Prepare to have your thinking stretched!"

The auditorium will hold 750 curious spectators. What is the most taunting question I can ask the eminent doctor?

Arikay · 04-19-2003, 01:47 AM

I unfortunatly dont know his work, but, if you want to be annoying you could always ask

"If evolution can be disproven, why havent you won a nobel prize yet for disproving it?"

But then again, I dont know his views, and am just trying to be annoying.

KnightWhoSaysNi · 04-19-2003, 07:02 AM

Ask him about some of the genetic evidences, such as shared retroviruses in primates and the broken gene for Vitamin C synthesis.

A lot of that can found from 29 Evidences for Macroevolution talk.origins, and from Winace's great post about evidence for chimp/human common ancestry here.

Here's some good points made by Winace there:

Quote:

Primates, unlike all other mammals (with the exception of guinea pigs), cannot synthesize Vitamin C. In days long past, this led to tragic outbreaks of scurvy on seafaring voyages. Using the predictions of evolution, scientists hypothesized that the gene for vitamin C production would be found in humans as well, despite our not being able to produce it.

Lo and behold, a GLO (ascorbic acid pseudogene) was identified in humans at exactly the same spots other mammals have functional vitamin C genes. What's more, the other great apes (chimps, gorillas and orangutans) had an identical broken pseudogene!

The common ancestor of apes and humans lived in a fruit-rich environment and had no need to synthesize their own vitamin C, making the loss of that gene entirely neutral. Guinea pigs also have a damaged GLO pseudogene, but the mutation that crippled it is different, as expected if it was an independent occurence.

From "29 Evidences"

Quote:

Yet another example is given by endogenous retroviruses. Endogenous retroviruses are molecular remnants of a past parasitic viral infection. Occasionally, copies of a retrovirus genome are found in its host's genome, and these retroviral gene copies are called endogenous retroviral sequences. Retroviruses (like the AIDS virus or HTLV1, which causes a form of leukemia) make a DNA copy of their own viral genome and insert it into their host's genome. If this happens to a germ line cell (i.e. the sperm or egg cells) the retroviral DNA will be inherited by descendants of the host. Again, this process is rare and fairly random, so finding retrogenes in identical chromosomal positions of two different species indicates common ancestry.

Confirmation:
In humans, endogenous retroviruses occupy about 1% of the genome, in total constituting ~30,000 different retroviruses embedded in each person's genomic DNA (Sverdlov 2000). There are at least seven different known instances of common retrogene insertions between chimps and humans, and this number is sure to grow as both these organism's genomes are sequenced (Bonner et al. 1982; Dangel et al. 1995; Svensson et al. 1995; Kjellman et al. 1999; Lebedev et al. 2000; Sverdlov 2000). Figure 4.4.1 shows a phylogenetic tree of several primates, including humans, from a recent study which identified numerous shared endogenous retroviruses in the genomes of these primates (Lebedev et al. 2000). The arrows designate the relative insertion times of the viral DNA into the host genome. All branches after the insertion point (to the right) carry that retroviral DNA - a reflection of the fact that once a retrovirus has inserted into the germ-line DNA of a given organism, it will be inherited by all ancestors of that organism.

Korihor (formerly, Nightshade)

scigirl · 04-19-2003, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ApostateAbe
Bring your toughest questions for Dr. Ross.[/B]
Prepare to have your thinking stretched!"

Ugg. More like the truth stretched.

Good luck ApostateAbe. If it were me, I'd focus on the entirety of the situation - why have so many scientists been wrong for so long, if they are the ones studying the evidence? Your audience will most likely be college students, so the "knowledge is from satan" argument probably won't fly. Point out that evolution first didn't gain wide acceptance because it contradicted with earlier theories - NOT because of the Bible (the YEC thing is a recent phenomenon).

Ask him - if the scientists are wrong about evolution, doesn't that mean they are also wrong about DNA methods such as fingerprinting criminals, or cancer diagnosis, since they use the exact same inferences?

I also like Korihor's idea to stick with very specific details. Why do we have a broken vitamin C gene, and why is it found in all of our closest (alleged) relatives, but not the distant ones? Why do we have chimp telomeres and centromeres in our chromosome #2?

Or - just skip it and go down to the Crab Pot and have good food and drinks. I admire anyone who can sit through those presentations without exploding.

scigirl

lpetrich · 04-19-2003, 09:39 AM

In this connection, has anyone found anything on whether cats have taurine-synthesis pseudogenes? I checked on PubMed and I could not find anything.

Taurine is widespread in the animal kingdom, and cats, as a result of their full-time-carnivore lifestyle, have lost the ability to synthesize it. But omnivores and herbivores can; thus we and dogs do not need to consume taurine.

Taurine is

NH2 - CH2 - CH2 - HSO3

(yes, it's a biological sulfonic acid)

ApostateAbe · 04-19-2003, 04:51 PM

I am going to stick to WinAce's point about entrogenous retroviruses. I already printed out a modified version of the graphic that illustrates the relation of the EVRs to the evolutionary tree of primates. I am going to have him on his knees.

tgamble · 04-19-2003, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl
Ugg. More like the truth stretched.
Ask him - if the scientists are wrong about evolution, doesn't that mean they are also wrong about DNA methods such as fingerprinting criminals, or cancer diagnosis, since they use the exact same inferences?

How DARE you try and pretend that fingerprinting and cancer diagnosis has anything to do with rocks turning into humans over 34343 gazzillion years! Lying evolutionist scum!

tgamble · 04-19-2003, 05:15 PM

Ask him why he denies speciation when

a) it's been observed

b) YECs (at least the ones at AIG) don't.

04-18-2003, 11:14 PM	#1
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Hugh Ross comes to campus Dr. Hugh Ross is a creationist who accepts the Big Bang theory but not biological evolution. He is the founder/president of Reasons to Believe. Now he is paying the University of Washington a visit next Wednesday evening. His fliers notify, "Lecture format followed by open-microphone Question & Answer Bring your toughest questions for Dr. Ross. Prepare to have your thinking stretched!" The auditorium will hold 750 curious spectators. What is the most taunting question I can ask the eminent doctor?

04-19-2003, 05:15 PM	#8
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	Re: Re: Re: Hugh Ross comes to campus Ask him why he denies speciation when a) it's been observed b) YECs (at least the ones at AIG) don't.

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04-19-2003, 01:47 AM	#2
Arikay Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ca, Usa Posts: 262	I unfortunatly dont know his work, but, if you want to be annoying you could always ask "If evolution can be disproven, why havent you won a nobel prize yet for disproving it?" But then again, I dont know his views, and am just trying to be annoying.

04-19-2003, 09:39 AM	#5
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	In this connection, has anyone found anything on whether cats have taurine-synthesis pseudogenes? I checked on PubMed and I could not find anything. Taurine is widespread in the animal kingdom, and cats, as a result of their full-time-carnivore lifestyle, have lost the ability to synthesize it. But omnivores and herbivores can; thus we and dogs do not need to consume taurine. Taurine is NH2 - CH2 - CH2 - HSO3 (yes, it's a biological sulfonic acid)

04-19-2003, 04:51 PM	#6
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	I am going to stick to WinAce's point about entrogenous retroviruses. I already printed out a modified version of the graphic that illustrates the relation of the EVRs to the evolutionary tree of primates. I am going to have him on his knees.

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