Arbogast

Ps
Your Scientific Ideology (IMO the more accurate ideology) has been defeated over and over and over and over and over Ad Nauseum by the voters of Cobb County!!!!

I suspect one day Cobb County will evolve where Creationism is defeated at the ballot box, but that day has not arrived.

Clutch

Guess what, Arbie? The legal system is as much a component of a free society as the ballot box. "Yall" remember how well the ballot box worked for civil rights?

Democracies can vote to do things that are illegal or unconstitutional -- sometimes quite subtly so. In those cases, the courts are a crucial source of remedy. It is not especially subtle that, seen in context, the Cobb Co stickering policy is a measure of religious education in the public system. Whether you agree or disagree with that claim, however, it is absurd to whine that the court system is the wrong venue through the matter should be pursued by someone who does agree. You don't take a violation of the constitution to your schoolboard ballot box and decide to abide by whatever result emerges! You take it to the court.

Arbogast

Oh, dont get me wrong , I think the case deserves its 2 seconds in a court of law, just not much more than that.

And Civil Rights is very different than using courts to force personal points of view on people. The courts dont need to be in the business of Thought Police.

"evolution is a theory and not a fact."
That sticker is a nice compromise and a reasonable statement. Personally I buy the evolution theory, but it aint a fact...

"We do not expect teachers to teach creationism. Our intention is to promote a broad-based science curriculum which will acknowledge that there are differences of opinion about the origin of life, and to encourage students and others to be tolerant and respectful of those who may have different beliefs," said Curt Johnson, Chairman of the Cobb County school board.


Makes sense too me.

Nobody is forcing any religion on anyone, the above is a very reasonable reflection of the Cobb County community (not that I would ever consider living in Cobb County, its about the most unpleasant place in Ga IMO).


It belittles Civil Rights to compare it to the ACLU's efforts to be Thought Police.

Arbogast

Personally, I would vote against any person campaigning against Evolution while running for an eduation post, but I dont see how the idea of Creationism is illegal.

Discussion of Creationism is far to generic to be an imposition of religion by the government on the people.

Heck, I would say it is a healthy debate for young minds...

Clutch

Really? Because that's not what you said. You said, But as you now appear to concede, that was plain wrong. It's not a matter of the democratic process, but rather the importance of the constitutional principle that's being violated.
Wow, could you botch the issue any more comprehensively?

I guess you'll have to show me where the lawsuit claims that the idea of creationism is illegal.

And you seem to have missed my point about the context. The absence of any stickers on physics texts or geography texts, alluding to the non-factual theories of relativity or that the Earth is roughly spherical, establishes a contrast with evolution which immediately suggests some special purpose. Gosh, what's that special purpose? To challenge young minds in some arbitrarily chosen fashion? They might have assigned an extra science project per week, but instead hit on, oh, say, the idea of emphasizing the PURELY THEORETICAL IT'S NOT A FACT DON'T YOU BE FOOLED... oh, sorry, I mean, the principled defeasibility of any scientific explanation by discussing evolution?

Do attempt to get serious.

Albion

And in that respect, how does the theory of evolution differ from any of the other scientific theories out thre, which are managing just fine without warning stickers?

You know very well that the attempt to single out evolution is bound up with the non-scientific meaning of "theory" so that kids are being told that facts are true, theories are not facts, therefore theories are not true (and we know they're only guesses anyway, so why should they be true?), and evolution is a theory not a fact, and therefore is not true. Otherwise, why not ram that sticker on every science book in the curriculum?

scigirl

Arbogast,

If I truly thought that the proponents of this sticker really did have the best interests of scientific and educational integrity at heart, if I believed that the creationist proponents really wanted their kids to learn to think for themselves and critically analyze all knowledge, then I"d put the damn stickers there themselves.

But if that is your view of creationists, you are seriously mistaken.

It's not what the sticker says - it's what it stands for. They want to teach their religion in the secular schools. Since they can't, it is is them who are railroading the first amendment with their sneaky pseudoscientific babble.

I thank god every day for the ACLU. I wish we didn't need an organization to remind everyone to uphold the constitution, but unfortunately, we do.

scigirl

Arbogast

"If I truly thought that the proponents of this sticker really did have the best interests of scientific and educational integrity at heart, if I believed that the creationist proponents really wanted their kids to learn to think for themselves and critically analyze all knowledge, then I"d put the damn stickers there themselves."


I dont trust the motives of the people putting in the stickers. No doubt many would then try to move on and force a particular religious belief upon people. But the sticker is an excellent compromise to a contentious issue.


Neither are the motives of many in the anti Creationist movement noble. Many in the anti Creationists movement are also religious fanatics, attempting to snuff out all mention of religious beliefs to advance their idea that Atheism is the one true religion.


It is difficult to divorce questions of evolution and origins of universe from religious questions (I would argue modern science is a dramatically improved religious belief system on one level). So, if you are going to discuss such matters in a public school, you need to be careful to acknowledge the valid differences of opinion.


NO THOUGHT POLICE IN AMERICA!!!!

Arbogast

"And in that respect, how does the theory of evolution differ from any of the other scientific theories out thre, which are managing just fine without warning stickers? "

Because Evolution conflicts with profound religious beliefs of many in the community, unlike, say the Laws of Thermodynamics.

Therefore, an ackowledgement that it is a theory and not a fact respects that there is a legitamate difference of opinion.

Arbogast

You are correct, I should have been more specific.

The lawsuit is attempting to make it illegal to acknowledge the widespread belief that the Universe was created by a higher being in a science class.

At least, that is my impression without spending hours reading up on the subject.

Perhaps I am assuming too much here, but there certainly is a class of individual, very similar in many ways to the Extreme Protestant Religious Fanatics, who at every turn wish to impose the Religion of Atheism into all Public Schools, although they wouldnt come out and say it openly.