Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malaclypse the Younger · 02-26-2002, 07:35 AM

<a href="http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=139&mode=thread&order=0" target="_blank">Ashcroft, American history, and speaking in tongues</a>

Quote:

John Ashcroft, Attorney General of the United States, recently repeated an old chestnut about America being a Christian nation whose founders were Christian gentlemen.

The claim is common among the country's fundamentalist Christians, but it is so ignorant of actual history one wonders whether it should not be taken as another serious indictment of American public education.

Not sure where this should go. Feel free to move it.

Howard · 02-26-2002, 07:52 AM

These sort of statements by the U.S. Attorney General are damned infuriating and more than a little scary. It is painfully obvious that America has ignorant religious zealots in the highest positions of government, and, because of 9/11, they now believe they have a sacred mandate to “return our nation to its Xtian roots.”

The problem is compounded by the fact that so many Americans are woefully ignorant of history and incapable of serious skepticism and critical thinking when it comes to their religious beliefs. They truly believe that what Ashcroft is saying is the truth and dredge up out-of-context and erroneous quotes by the Founding Fathers (who have achieved near deity status in America) to support it.

It is clear to me that Bush and Ashcroft have a strong religious agenda and intend to use the “war on terrorism” to promote it. And they have a hell of a lot of popular support for it. If you oppose them you’re not just opposing God but you’re aiding the enemy. It’s the worst kind of demagoguery.

[ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Howard ]</p>

Monkeybot · 02-26-2002, 04:30 PM

Not quite sure where to put this one either, but I'll send it to Political Discussions and see what happens.

hezekiah jones · 02-26-2002, 04:47 PM

American public education? This character went to Yale and the University of Chicago Law School.

Sakpo · 02-26-2002, 09:47 PM

I think this is more of a Church-State topic.

Oresta · 02-27-2002, 04:16 AM

I agree that this is a CS issue. Bush and Ashcroft are prosatelyzing (sp?) religion while in their respective, secular public roles. That is a clear violation of the First Amendment.

Jamie_L · 02-27-2002, 04:47 AM

I've recently revised my position on America being founded as a "Christian" nation.

In one respect, it was: many of the colonies/states were basically theocracies, with official churches hopelessly intertwined with the state government.

However, the Constitution clearly was written with an eye towards the problems this situation generated. It clearly is NOT a Christian document. Over the years, other American leaders have clearly seen the strength of this document, and moved to a more federalized system in which the Consitution holds sway over the states. In this regard, our nation is definitely not a Christian nation. It is a Constitutional nation, based on a clearly Godless constitution.

Amen for that.

Jamie

Toto · 02-27-2002, 09:52 AM

Very interesting article from Yellow Times on the history of the uses of religion in politics.

Quote:

George Washington was a deist. He was a member of the Masons, a then comparatively-new, secretive fraternal organization widely regarded as unfriendly to traditional Christianity and reflecting European secular attitudes. He did attend church regularly, but this was done with the aristocratic notion that it set an example for the lower classes...

Quote:

Alexander Hamilton, undoubtedly the most intellectually gifted of the founders other than Franklin, paid lip service to religion, but he was known during the Revolution as a rake. Later, his distinguished career in Washington's cabinet was marred by a great sexual scandal. Generally, Hamilton used religion to promote his political aims, ignoring it whenever it was convenient. In this respect, perhaps he qualifies as a thoroughly modern American version of a Christian.

Quote:

Abraham ... Lincoln's closest friend and most interesting biographer, Herndon, said flatly that Lincoln was a religious skeptic. This has always so upset America's establishment historians that Herndon has been accused of writing a distorted book, a rather ridiculous charge in view of a close friendship with his subject and twenty years spent collecting materials.

Lincoln never attended church and when he refers to God in speeches during the Civil War, it is always with words acceptable to secular, educated people who regarded the King James Bible as an important cultural and literary document apart from any claims for its sacredness.

This is the America that I grew up in - nobody believed in religion except for some crazy holy rollers, but everyone had to pretend to go along with things.

Oregon Slim · 02-28-2002, 01:39 AM

"nobody believed in religion except for some crazy holy rollers, but everyone had to pretend to go along with things"

That's it. There was a loud religious minority in the US during our first 100 years, but definitely a minority. But, if you could get an extra 10 percent to go along with the majority by throwing in some extra capital letters promiscuously to get folks to see how seriously you respected their religious beliefs, what's the problem with that? Lincoln and Jefferson did that sort of thing repeatedly.

butswana · 02-28-2002, 08:13 AM

But now those "crazy holy rollers" are calling the shots.

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02-26-2002, 07:52 AM	#2
Howard Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Orlando, Fl Posts: 5,864	These sort of statements by the U.S. Attorney General are damned infuriating and more than a little scary. It is painfully obvious that America has ignorant religious zealots in the highest positions of government, and, because of 9/11, they now believe they have a sacred mandate to “return our nation to its Xtian roots.” The problem is compounded by the fact that so many Americans are woefully ignorant of history and incapable of serious skepticism and critical thinking when it comes to their religious beliefs. They truly believe that what Ashcroft is saying is the truth and dredge up out-of-context and erroneous quotes by the Founding Fathers (who have achieved near deity status in America) to support it. It is clear to me that Bush and Ashcroft have a strong religious agenda and intend to use the “war on terrorism” to promote it. And they have a hell of a lot of popular support for it. If you oppose them you’re not just opposing God but you’re aiding the enemy. It’s the worst kind of demagoguery. [ February 26, 2002: Message edited by: Howard ]</p>

02-26-2002, 04:30 PM	#3
Monkeybot Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,102	Not quite sure where to put this one either, but I'll send it to Political Discussions and see what happens.

02-26-2002, 04:47 PM	#4
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	American public education? This character went to Yale and the University of Chicago Law School.

02-26-2002, 09:47 PM	#5
Sakpo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Pacific Northwest (illegally occupied indigenous l Posts: 7,716	I think this is more of a Church-State topic.

02-27-2002, 04:16 AM	#6
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	I agree that this is a CS issue. Bush and Ashcroft are prosatelyzing (sp?) religion while in their respective, secular public roles. That is a clear violation of the First Amendment.

02-27-2002, 04:47 AM	#7
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I've recently revised my position on America being founded as a "Christian" nation. In one respect, it was: many of the colonies/states were basically theocracies, with official churches hopelessly intertwined with the state government. However, the Constitution clearly was written with an eye towards the problems this situation generated. It clearly is NOT a Christian document. Over the years, other American leaders have clearly seen the strength of this document, and moved to a more federalized system in which the Consitution holds sway over the states. In this regard, our nation is definitely not a Christian nation. It is a Constitutional nation, based on a clearly Godless constitution. Amen for that. Jamie

02-28-2002, 01:39 AM	#9
Oregon Slim Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 283	"nobody believed in religion except for some crazy holy rollers, but everyone had to pretend to go along with things" That's it. There was a loud religious minority in the US during our first 100 years, but definitely a minority. But, if you could get an extra 10 percent to go along with the majority by throwing in some extra capital letters promiscuously to get folks to see how seriously you respected their religious beliefs, what's the problem with that? Lincoln and Jefferson did that sort of thing repeatedly.

02-28-2002, 08:13 AM	#10
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	But now those "crazy holy rollers" are calling the shots.

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