Jobar

Whispers, from what I know of history, religion and belief in god(s) has been an evil which wears a mask of good.

I think that the idea of a God who demands certain behaviour of human beings is a con, a cheat, solely for the profit of the ones who preach the idea; the priests, the shamans, the reverends, the ministers. The good that these do- and I do not deny that they do *some* good- is far outweighed by the drag on human self-respect, and curiousity, and advancement.

I think that God-belief is an ancient lie. By claiming to know the reasons and causes of the universe and the phenomena we observe, without ever actually stating more than 'goddidit', religion has been a millstone about the necks of scientists and inventors in every society, in every time- because the priests and godmen see the genuine researches and advancements made by these *true* seekers after knowledge, as challenges to their own ersatz knowledge, and their supposedly god(s)-given dogmas.

Religion gives mankind an additional reason for warfare- because of the struggles between different religions, and different sects and denominations of the same religion. We already have far too many real and practical reasons for war, without adding fictional ones.

Like the little boy who proclaims the emperor to be naked, we skeptics proclaim the gods to be nonexistent. With the ideas of science, we explain mysteries which were once purely the domain of the priests- and unlike those of the priests, our explanations *work*. No longer do we pray to Thor to protect us from lightning; with a conducting shaft we can render it harmless. Instead of using rattles and incense to chase away demons of disease, we have the full panoply of medical science. Instead of worshipping the sun, we recognize it as a vast ball of slowly fusing hydrogen, and the planets, once named gods, are now investigated by probes and telescopes.

Each generation- each year- we press back and back the zone of mystery and abstraction where the gods supposedly reside; and find no gods there. Either they are retreating before our questing knowledge, or they were never there in the first place.

I find it far more sensible to simply declare them mythical and imaginary, ancient fictions.

Whispers

Thanks Jobar,

Quite often the problems caused by religion are because of our nature and not because of something external to us. We can blame the weather, our partners, lack of money, religion, bad upbringing etc etc All of these things can contribute to bad behaviour, whatever that maybe....maybe we are all just predisposed to violence or cruelty, who knows?

I think that those that committ atrocities in the name of religion, may possibly have committed them anyway, and just used a different excuse, or even no excuse at all. Religion does not cause a man to blow himself up, strapped with explosives because God wanted it. Those that interpret holy sciptures like the Koran as advising violence, miss the overall message, and instead use single lines or paragraphs and base their entire reasoning or pilosophy around that. Religion can be blamed for anything and everything, and often is...

It cannot be denied that we all seek answers in some way shape or form. Even the most hardened atheists on this site, I believe are in some way looking for those answers which will could give them meaning and truth. You see we are driven to it really....its in our nature....when you are next tapping in this web address to come and debate and learn, ask yourself.... why do i bother? what is it you seek? is it the respect of the other people that post here? do you wish to have deep debate and win over those that dont share your view? what is the root reason for coming to this website? entertainment? maybe a bit, but i warrant that almost everyone that comes here, is seeking the true answers to those questions that haunt us.

Why am i here?
How did i get here?
where am i going when i leave this existence?
do i have worth?
do others?
what is death and life and the inbetween bit all about?

if we are not seeking these answers, than i am not sure what we are doing on this website? Know what I mean....

you see, those that believe, see god everywhere, and those that dont cant see him at all. you say that religion has caused so much suffering, and believers say that it has caused so much joy, each side of the line, professes the truth as they see it....and yet both cannot be exactly right....are you?

this brings me back to my original point.....there is something deeply powerfull and haunting with regards to the potential existence of a god? we both can feel it i am sure...look through the posts on this site, and you will see every type of person posting their opinions on the truths of existence and meaning. high morals are debated by people as ifthat which they speak is truth, and all othet conflicting opinions are treated with derision....so many conflicting opinions all claiming to be right and all wanting to be heard...

why bother? what is it we are seeking really? why why why?

Hawkingfan

If you read alot of the OT, you'll find that much of that behavior is condoned. So they DO get it from religion.
The god as described in the bible takes the cake, however.
That's funny. I think they'd be less likely.
How do you know? God sure wanted similar atrocities done to innocent people in the OT.
And rightfully so.
You are dead wrong. The following best describes why I'm here (originally written by American Heretic):

"When you die you rot. Your beliefs rot with you, unless you've passed them off or handed them down.The consequence then, for the rest of us, of your religion's ignorance and being "not intellectually studied up" is the following:
1) Myth without factual support is claimed to be as valid as science with it's full body of factual support. Education becomes meaningless.
2) Absolute morality as derived from God and the Bible is claimed to be as valid as reasoned ethics. Philosophy and ethical reasoning become meaningless.
I argue against your religion because I want to obliterate all of your consequences, every last one of them. I want your influence out of our political system. I want your influence out of our educational system. I want your mythology kept completely apart from science. I want your bloody morals discredited and erased from the face of the globe. I want you to have to earn your human worth instead of merely pretending in order to achieve "holier than thou" standing among your peers. I want you to respect others and contribute to humanity instead of gleefully threatening that we will fry in Hell for not agreeing with you, who think you know better, because you think ignorance and myth, and fact and science, are equals."

Totally pointless question. And besides, if god is the answer then it just complicates things further.
I would only ask that question if I was afraid of dying. Since I'm not, I could care less. Besides, I know for a fact that I will rot in the ground when I die. That is a scientific fact.

Mageth

I think that those that committ atrocities in the name of religion, may possibly have committed them anyway, and just used a different excuse, or even no excuse at all.

Could not the same thing be said about those that "commit good" in the name of religion?

What we have is a wash; religion doesn't make most people behave any differently than they would otherwise behave.

Even the most hardened atheists on this site, I believe are in some way looking for those answers which will could give them meaning and truth.

I recognize that there is no Answer that gives me, or us, Meaning or Truth (with a capital "M" and "T"). Each of us, myself included, may find meaning in life (with a lower case m), if that's our desire, or can live our life with no particular meaning in mind if we so wish.

Why am i here?

There's no answer to the "why" question. Seeking the answer is a waste of time and effort.

How did i get here?

I was conceived of two human parents, and nine months later was born, just like you. Life evolved from non-life at sometime back in the past, if that's what you're getting at. There's no reason why this happened.

where am i going when i leave this existence?

To a grave (or incinerator) where my molecules will return to the environment. That doesn't bother me in the least.

do i have worth?

To some external entity, or in some objective sense? No, as no such external entity exists that could see "worth" in me.

I do have "worth" to myself, though; in particular, this one life I get I value highly.

do others?

I recognize the same worth in others as I do in myself. Thus, I treat them with compassion and with the respect they deserve.

what is death and life and the inbetween bit all about?

The "in-between" bit is life, is it not? That's really all we have, isn't it? And it's about what you want it to be about.

Those questions pose no problem for me; none of them worry me in the least. I need no superior, eternal being to answer any of them satisfactorily for myself. I recognize that others can't or won't do that, and thus seek solace in various mythologies. Oh, well; such makes life a bit more interesting, I reckon.

if we are not seeking these answers, than i am not sure what we are doing on this website? Know what I mean....

No. I have no need for any other answers than the ones I gave, and thus am not seeking any other answers. And realizing that there are no such answers a few years ago was an extremely liberating experience.

One thing I try to do on this website is to get others to realize that so that they can realize those "Why?" questions are, in reality, a waste of time, and feel the same liberation. You'd do much better getting on with your life, defining your own meaning and worth if you are so inclined, rather than worrying about them or wasting your time serving some imaginary being to give yourself "worth" and "meaning."

this brings me back to my original point.....there is something deeply powerfull and haunting with regards to the potential existence of a god? we both can feel it i am sure...

I don't. All I see is wishful thinking.

why bother? what is it we are seeking really? why why why?

Why not stop wasting your breath asking a question with no answer and instead concentrate on making your own life as interesting and rewarding as possible? You really don't need a god to find this life interesting and valuable. I know, because I do so without the solace and support of myth.

beastmaster

Opposite. It is because God does *not* exist that the imagination of him has such a powerful effect on (some) people's lives.

God is simply an empty shell, a word without definition and thus without limitation. God is whatever you imagine him to be. He's the nice uncle you don't have, the retributive force that assures the come-uppance of the unpunished, the gentle hand that guides you in a direction alreay psychologically indicated -- he's all these things and more.

God is a perfectly adaptable concept -- and thus the most powerful idea -- precisely because his non-existence strips the concept of any limitations.

emotional

Whispers, you have my sympathy. You ask the right questions, but most of the people here have subscribed to the answer that there is really no ultimate answer.

Even if you insert God into the equation - and I do - you've just deferred the ultimate answer a step deeper. "Why are we here?" - "Because God wanted it" - "Why did God want it?".

For practical life, metaphysical naturalism - the worldview that nature is all there is - makes sense. People die of starvation every day, so I suppose you could say the world is pretty godless. Hidden or non-existent, it gets to be the same in practice.

I opted for "hidden" rather "non-existent" because of my obsession with the death question. According to metaphysical naturalism, one becomes nothing at all at death. Being unable to hold such a view, I chose faith in God and the afterlife instead.

You're entitled to hold any beliefs you want. Just two caveats: 1) Don't search for scientific or any other evidential support for those beliefs, and 2) Do no harm to fellow man. I'm in favour of blind faith, but not if it is at the expense of other people.

Infidelettante

It is the question of meaning and you are saying meaning can only be given to us, we can not have it on our own and of ourselves. You say there is something or someone who gives meaning and so we must align ourselves with this something or someone if we are to have meaningful lives.

There is one thing that troubles me about your argument. Those who reject the alignment cease to have meaning. That is, as beings they no longer mean anything to your something/one who then feels justified in disposing of them in the most horrific manner. Can you understand that while you offer a path to a meaningful life it is the same path by which that very life can be rendered meaningless.

JT

NonHomogenized

I don't know what this "nature" of ours you refer to is. Could you please elaborate?

Maybe you are. I'm not, and most of the people I associate with are not.

You know, I think you might be on to something there, at least, in a great many cases.

Au contraire. I don't think that most anyone would blow themselves up to kill other people, if they didn't believe they would get an eternal reward from their god from it.

Much like those who interpret holy scriptures like the bible as advertising love, miss the overall message, and instead use single lines or paragraphs and base their entire "reasoning" around that.

Yes, like recovery from disease, unlikely rescues, etc etc etc.

Nope. The only meaning is that which we make for ourselves. I'll agree with the part about searching for truth. I would like to know the truth about how the universe works, and I will ever search for that. I have no energy or patience for other people's fantasies on the subject.

Because it's funny to see what theists will say, and I enjoy the rational discussion with the other atheists.

Interesting, well-considered points of view. Questions I haven't thought about answers to before. Humor.

Nope. No offense to the many fine people here, but I'm here for my amusement, not their respect.

Not really. I prefer to share my thoughts with others, and learn their thoughts. Share and share alike. If they adopt an idea of mine, bully for us both. If not, bully for us both. Same goes for me adopting their ideas.

bingo.

because you're not dead yet.

If you don't know this, you've missed out on some important details in life.

You're not. You're going to cease to exist. What will happen to the remains you leave behind? I dunno. Not my business.

In my opinion, yes. The universe is an unfathomably huge place, and the fact that self-aware beings are so rare in proportion, makes each one a valuable and unique thing.

And as I'm all I have, that makes me valuable to myself.

see above.

[/quote]what is death and life and the inbetween bit all about?[/quote]

Life is all about whatever you make your life about. Death is "about" the cessation of life. I don't see that there's any in-between.

Enjoying myself? Entertaining myself and others? Learning something?

Actually, I think I do. I felt that way back when I was a christian. Then I realized that the gap I was trying to fill in my life was the cognitive dissonance of believing in things without any good reasons to do so, while trying to learn about the world around me.

And people on heroin see roaches crawling under their skin. So?

which, indubitably, it has.

which, indubitably, it... hasn't.

Let's take two hypothetical people. One is inclined to cause suffering, and one is inclined to help others. Without religion, they might act on these inclinations. With religion, they will do the same, however, the person who is inclined to cause suffering, rather than being content with causing suffering merely to those around them, may well feel that it is their duty to their god to make everyone suffer.

Maybe religion has done some good. I won't dispute that. However, it has certainly done a great deal more harm, and, as culture progresses, will only do moreso.

The same goes for other delusions. Or some clouds, for that matter. People will see what they want to see in them.

Yes, we certainly.... no, wait, that's just gas. No, sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. I see you gazing at the stars, looking for the hidden message which you imagine is written in them (as children will dig on the beach, looking for pirates' treasure), when I want to see each and every one of them up close.

because we can can can. because we can can can can can can can can.

Seriously, some of us are simply seeking new ideas to mull over, to ponder, consider, and contemplate. Why? Because it's new, interesting, fascinating, exciting, mind-broadening, and so forth. Why do we seek these things? Curiousity; the desire to know what's out there. I hope that answers your question, because I see curiousity as an end unto itself. Ask any ferret, and I'll bet that, if you get an answer, it will agree with me.

DMB

I do wonder, Whispers, if you've actually read the Koran. There are an awful lot of lines and paragraphs in favour of violence.

I come here not because of an interest in your questions. I come here to find the fellowship of the enlightened in a world where a majority of people go blindly through life with their vision befogged by the delusions of religions.

xorbie

This is silly, just because some people believe in the wrong God does not mean God does not exist.

However, I want anwer the original question, not continue talking about the virtues of Christianity (about none). The reason that people like born again Christians can turn their life around can be attributed, in my lay opinion to several factors, none of which have anything to do with God. One is the group mentality and feeling of support. People can change when they join ANY group, it doesn't have to be a religious one. Another aspect is that any sudden change like this can have a dramatic effect on one's life. The third is the issue of "direction" and "purpose." People can feel a renewed vigour when they suddenly have some sort of reason to keep doing what they doing. Hell, the same thing happens when smokers realize they are going to be having kids, or fat people for that matter.