Rhea

In another thread - a Christian challenged for examples of people who "Lie for faith"

I am starting a separate thread because this is something I see _all_the_time_ and I thought it deserved its own topic.

I know there are many posters here who have their own tales, but this one has always struck my as monumentally disturbing... read especially the last link.

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<a href="http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/23/columbine/" target="_blank"> Sept '99 article at Salon</a>
The details are shown here on <a href="http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/23/columbine/index1.html" target="_blank"> page 2 </a>

Another article from 6 months later...

Perhaps this is an example of why it has not been refuted publicly. It _is_ a tragic event, and some people seem to see it as an opportunity to fabricate a twist to the event that will gain religious conversion. Why they want converts on a lie is puzzling to me, but that is what is said here. <a href="http://www.columbine-angels.com/Cassie.htm" target="_blank">http://www.columbine-angels.com/Cassie.htm</a>

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[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Rhea ]</p>

Rhea

Next look at Mother Theresa

And then ask some members here whether they were instructed to "be healed" publicly - repeatedly - to "prove" Jesus' power.

These are lies _to_ gain converts. Not lies about petty human things. But lying to people in order to get them to believe.

What strikes me is how entirely plausible this is.

The Cassie Bernall story illustrates to me _exactly_ how the gospels could have been written. 50 years from now, do you think Emily Wyant's story will endure? No? How about the book about Cassie Bernall, one based on a LIE. That is what will endure and it will be preserved as "truth" - just like the Gospels could have been. Something that was completely untrue is preserved as not only true, but a "miracle". It never even happened, but people think it's a gr4eat story, so they pass it on as truth. before long, it becomes their "truth". You can watch it happen before your very eyes. Sad, kind of, isn't it.

babelfish

What a great point. Those arguments about how the New Testament must be true, because, well, look, it says so right here that people saw Jesus walking around after he was supposedly killed, and Paul even says that there were 500 witnesses who saw him...it doesn't take too much knowledge of human nature or too big an imagination to imagine how all this could have come to be written down as factual.

People way back then were prone to exaggeration, lying to try to gain approval, credulity, gullibility, to no less a degree than people are today. Human nature hasn't really changed very much over the course of history. Then as now, when an individual repeats a lie enough times, he himself may actually come to believe it. And then as now, those around him will swallow the lie with ease.

Bible Humper

Heh, perhaps this guy should have a look at the creationist's record of honesty, especially when quoting evilutionists. I've seen them remove words from within a sentence in order to make it look like the nasty evilutionist is saying something completely different than what was intended.

The only mystery is why they don't just totally invent quotes if they are going to go that far anyway.

I am a fish

What do you think the odds are of her becoming St. Cassie?

Rhea

revoltingly, depressingly, eye-poppingly HIGH.

I once read an admonishment from a preacher about Christians who sent around God-Spam. Specifically the urban legend kind. He wrote an eloquent reminder to seek the truth and ended with something like,

--------You must remember that people will rightly ask themselves, "If Christians will believe _this_ without even checking for facts, what _other_ fiction did they fall for?" And the serious implications of that for our Faith.---------

I thought that was a Very Important Concept. One that more credulous Christians should consider.

...But then again, I think he is spot on, against his will!

sighhswolf

Rea,
This doesnt really surprise me because the whole
christian belief system is based on lies, half truths, misinformation and misdirection.
What you would expect from a system whose designers have anticipated every single objection, from the standpoint of reason and logic to their doctrines and dogma.
For those areas that would not or could not be possible in the physical universe, they just happily coined new phrases and designed concepts to cater to those impossible and improbable claims or situations.
Christianity was designed by men for men, by gentiles for gentiles, by mystics for mystics.
There is no more ambiguous document on this earth than the bible, the text can be used to substantiate anything one wishes to present.
Whatever you are looking for...is what you will find.
Even criminals, murderers, despots, find justification for their acts in the text of the bible and the practice of christianity.
Wolf

Gregg

Could have, but probably not. Mark at least, and most likely all the Gospel writers, were probably perfectly aware that they were writing allegories, and made no attempt to present their stories as anything other than allegories, as teaching and liturgical tools. The events of Jesus' ministry bear striking parallels to "Old" Testament stories,and the details of the Passion are drawn practically word for word, line for line, from the Jewish scriptures.

While Christianity was a predominately Hellenistic Jewish phenomenon, most Christians probably understood that the Gospels were simply allegorical renderings of events that had taken place in a spiritual dimension. But particularly after the Jewish War and the expulsion of the Jews from Palestine, Christianity became a gentile faith, and folks who had no understanding of Hellenistic philosophy and cosmology (and did not share the Hellenistic/Jewish aversion to equating anything earthly with God) began to regard the Gospels as literal accounts. Since the writers were all dead and Palestine was emptied of most of its inhabitants, there was no one around to object.

Gregg