Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dangin · 10-10-2002, 06:18 AM

OK, actually it is redemption and omniscience that seals the deal.

Jesus and god are one.

Jesus died for our sins.

Jesus/god are omniscient so they know every sin every person is going to commit millenia before than person is even born.

Everyone is simply following a script already written in heaven, there is no free will.

If J/G don't know every sin, they are not omniscient.

If you do something J/G did not know you were going to do, J/G are not omniscient.

Now, since everything is scripted think about this.

A person is sick. People pray to god to heal the person. Not only did god know the person was going to be sick, god knows who is going to pray, how often, and how well.

God made the person sick, god made people pray to heal the sick person, god knew all along the person was going to die, even though god had some people pray they would live. Can you say sadist?

dangin · 10-10-2002, 06:21 AM

The good deal about this is, if you wanted to go to vegas and whore it up until your credit cards are maxed out, then you rob a bank to get money so you can whore it up a little longer, and shoot drugs, it is all OK.

God knew you were going to do it, god wrote that you were going to do it, you had no choice, because god has known you were going to do it since time began, and jesus already paid the price for it.

Every sin you do is no surprise to god. It shouldn't bother him at all, or since he's known about it for so long, he should be over it by the time you see him in heaven.

Deacon · 10-10-2002, 06:24 AM

I love it when deities pre-pay in advance...

10-10-2002, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Deacon:
<strong>I love it when deities pre-pay in advance...</strong>

. . . especially when they add "set the prisoners free [because] vengeance is mine, I will repay."

Keith Russell · 10-10-2002, 06:36 AM

Greetings:

I've always loved how religion constantly speaks of the 'power' of prayer. They claim there are no atheists in foxholes, but people die in foxholes. What about their prayers...?

Keith.

Shadowy Man · 10-10-2002, 11:22 AM

I always say:

"If Jesus died for our sins, we wouldn't want to ruin his martyrdom by not committing them."

Jamie_L · 10-10-2002, 11:49 AM

Shadow Man:

Not only that, but if you're going to sin, you'd better make it something worth dying for. I mean, if Jesus just died for you to be able to lie to your girlfriend that she doesn't look fat in that dress, well, that's a bit of a waste to kill the Son of God over.

No, no. Killing the Son of God - we've got to make sure that was worthwhile. I'm talking perverted sex. Blasphemy. Violence and desecration of holy ground.

Yeah. That would make more sense.

Jamie

Keith Russell · 10-10-2002, 11:52 AM

Shadowy:

Now THAT is funny!

Keith.

luvluv · 10-10-2002, 12:54 PM

There is a difference between omniscience and predestination.

A person can know an act is going to happen and not be the author of the act.

Christians (some of us) believe that God knows our future actions because He can see the future, not because He has written it or pre-determined it. To be able to see one making a choice in the future is not to force one to make that choice in the future. Omniscience does not equal predestination.

For a momment, let's just assume free will is true, that humans actually do have a capacity to make decisions from some faculty independant of environment and genetics. There is some capacity in them which really enables them to make choices concerning their lives.

Even if God created the world, and knew from creation that a person was going to do a certain act, that does not imply that the person did not make the act freely or that God is responsible for the act. If free will really exists then the person COULD HAVE done whatever he or she wished that was within their power, but God only sees (and therefore knows) what they ACTUALLY DID. God can see into the future, and thus knows what people will do. This does not in any way necessitate the view that the person therefore had no real choice but to do what he or she did.

I don't see how free will and God's knowledge of the future are incompatible. God sees what you do because you do it, you don't do it because He sees it.

K · 10-10-2002, 01:00 PM

luvluv:

I'll add in one more fairly common Christian belief that does make it predestination.

God created humanity.

If God knew every action that every human would make before He created anything and He still proceeded to create us, then He predetermined what we would choose. If not predetermination, how else could you possibly describe creating something when you know exactly how it will behave before you've created it?

10-10-2002, 06:18 AM	#1
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	Redemption means no free will. OK, actually it is redemption and omniscience that seals the deal. Jesus and god are one. Jesus died for our sins. Jesus/god are omniscient so they know every sin every person is going to commit millenia before than person is even born. Everyone is simply following a script already written in heaven, there is no free will. If J/G don't know every sin, they are not omniscient. If you do something J/G did not know you were going to do, J/G are not omniscient. Now, since everything is scripted think about this. A person is sick. People pray to god to heal the person. Not only did god know the person was going to be sick, god knows who is going to pray, how often, and how well. God made the person sick, god made people pray to heal the sick person, god knew all along the person was going to die, even though god had some people pray they would live. Can you say sadist?

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10-10-2002, 06:21 AM	#2
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	The good deal about this is, if you wanted to go to vegas and whore it up until your credit cards are maxed out, then you rob a bank to get money so you can whore it up a little longer, and shoot drugs, it is all OK. God knew you were going to do it, god wrote that you were going to do it, you had no choice, because god has known you were going to do it since time began, and jesus already paid the price for it. Every sin you do is no surprise to god. It shouldn't bother him at all, or since he's known about it for so long, he should be over it by the time you see him in heaven.

10-10-2002, 06:24 AM	#3
Deacon Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 620	I love it when deities pre-pay in advance...

10-10-2002, 06:36 AM	#5
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: I've always loved how religion constantly speaks of the 'power' of prayer. They claim there are no atheists in foxholes, but people die in foxholes. What about their prayers...? Keith.

10-10-2002, 11:22 AM	#6
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	I always say: "If Jesus died for our sins, we wouldn't want to ruin his martyrdom by not committing them."

10-10-2002, 11:49 AM	#7
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Shadow Man: Not only that, but if you're going to sin, you'd better make it something worth dying for. I mean, if Jesus just died for you to be able to lie to your girlfriend that she doesn't look fat in that dress, well, that's a bit of a waste to kill the Son of God over. No, no. Killing the Son of God - we've got to make sure that was worthwhile. I'm talking perverted sex. Blasphemy. Violence and desecration of holy ground. Yeah. That would make more sense. Jamie

10-10-2002, 11:52 AM	#8
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Shadowy: Now THAT is funny! Keith.

10-10-2002, 12:54 PM	#9
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	There is a difference between omniscience and predestination. A person can know an act is going to happen and not be the author of the act. Christians (some of us) believe that God knows our future actions because He can see the future, not because He has written it or pre-determined it. To be able to see one making a choice in the future is not to force one to make that choice in the future. Omniscience does not equal predestination. For a momment, let's just assume free will is true, that humans actually do have a capacity to make decisions from some faculty independant of environment and genetics. There is some capacity in them which really enables them to make choices concerning their lives. Even if God created the world, and knew from creation that a person was going to do a certain act, that does not imply that the person did not make the act freely or that God is responsible for the act. If free will really exists then the person COULD HAVE done whatever he or she wished that was within their power, but God only sees (and therefore knows) what they ACTUALLY DID. God can see into the future, and thus knows what people will do. This does not in any way necessitate the view that the person therefore had no real choice but to do what he or she did. I don't see how free will and God's knowledge of the future are incompatible. God sees what you do because you do it, you don't do it because He sees it.

10-10-2002, 01:00 PM	#10
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	luvluv: I'll add in one more fairly common Christian belief that does make it predestination. God created humanity. If God knew every action that every human would make before He created anything and He still proceeded to create us, then He predetermined what we would choose. If not predetermination, how else could you possibly describe creating something when you know exactly how it will behave before you've created it?

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