spurly

It's not about following ideals. It is all about following Jesus. If Ghandi did that, he is saved. If he never accepted Jesus as his Savior and Lord, he is not saved.

"I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me" - Jesus"

"There is no other name [than Jesus], under heaven, given among men, by which they must be saved" - Peter [through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit]

Kevin

spurly

Whoaa there buddy! Most Christians do not believe that. Most Christians believe the words of Jesus in John 14:6.

Kevin

philechat

I guess spurly had it all out. "Saved" is what a Christian wants, and nothing else. The most important ideal is to be "saved" and not to be creative, benevolent, or gentle. It talks volumes about the general selfishness of Christian theology, its appeal to the lowest levels of human morality.

spurly

Nope philechat. Saved is just the first part. We are saved by grace through faith, after salvation comes doing the things that we were created for (According to Eph 2:8-10). We were created for things like you said. We are saved out of selfishness and for the good of humanity and the world.

"We are God's workmanship, created for good works, which God prepared in advance that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)

Thanks for letting me explain.

Kevin

philechat

Nope. If a virtuous Gandhi is going to hell, and an average Christian is going to heaven, simply because the Christian is "saved", I don't see how the "saved" Christian is going to be better for humanity than the unsaved Gandhi.

In terms of the well-defined values such as "virtue" however, Gandhi is still by definition more virtuous than the Christian. Gandhi's "virtues" are demonstrated by his benevolence toward other humans, his high ideals, and his search for knowledge and peace. "Saved" does not make one by default more virtuous, and actually is a rather selfish concept whose value for humanity is quite dubious.

spurly

I have never denied that Ghandi has done good things. However, doing good things is not the basis of a relationship with God. God can not be bribed by good works. What he wants is a relationship, and the way to enter that relationship of love is through the door that Christ opened when he died on the cross and rose from the dead.

Yes. If Ghandi never entered that relationship through Christ he will be destined for an eternity separated from God.

Kevin

christ-on-a-stick

Kevin,

My apologies if you have already elaborated on this elsewhere (my memory fails at the moment), but -

Does your definition of eternal "separation from God" come with all the trimmings of unquenched fire, wailing & gnashing of teeth, etc.???

Lauri

Philosoft

Can God be bribed by the self-serving testimony of those humans who profess to love and obey God in order to save their own behinds?

spurly

Philosoft, that's a good question that I really don't have the answer to. If I had to speak off the top of my head, which I am not really that good at doing, I would say that God can't be bribed by anything.

He knows if people are following him and claiming to have a relationship with him while their motives are terrible, or just claiming something that is not really there.

I count on him to sort it all out at the end - sort of like in the parable of the dragnet or the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13.

Kevin

spurly

Lauri, thanks for asking. Yes, I believe that hell will be a place of torment that will be worse than anything we can imagine - because it was a place that was prepared for Satan and his angels. A place where God would throw him for eternity for everything he did to break God's heart by leading people away from him.

But I also believe, because of the very words from the mouth of Jesus, that there will be degrees of punishment in hell. Jesus said that the servant who knew what he was supposed to do and did not do it will be beaten with many blows. But the servant who did not know what he was supposed to do and did not do it will be beaten with few blows.

What was Jesus saying. That those who knew that God's main desire was to have a relationship with him, yet turned away from him in rejection and rebellion, will be punished much more severely than those who never knew. The less one know, the less the punishment. Will some people not be punished at all because they knew nothing at all? I can't answer that question. I wish I could.

But all in all, the worst thing about the second death, in my opinion, is that God will totally withdraw his presence from that place - and nothing will be able to hold back the evil, horror, and terror. God is the only one capable of doing that, and he won't be there.

Kevin