CJD

I'll try to keep the arrogant rhetoric down this time around (you must appreciate the level of self-control at work here). My arrogant assumptions are not entirely irrelevant, though. By responding to the points in your previous post, I'll try to share my presumptive perspective. I understand that offense can be taken from my comments, however, I, in reality (not virtual), do not take myself all that seriously. I suspect many others in our culture could do the same.

I think shackling the argument by taking two verses by themselves (with no other information allowed) is dubious, at best. The only thing, for example, Deut. 18 and Jer. 18 show, on your criterion, is an apparent contradiction--not a bonafied contradiction. How does boxing in the argument like this constitute valid textual criticism? I have sat under (and work with) atheist, Jewish, and Christian biblical scholars, and not one of them would reach a conclusion that a given text is contradictory without taking the whole literary unit into account. Your suggested criterion for finding "contradictions" in the text can be done all day long (just look at the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, for example). It's a process that I have never found scholars doing. Hence my "arrogant" assumption.

Now, I am not starting from a zealous presupposition that no apparent contradictions exist in the text, if that is what you meant. But contradictions, by definition, do not exist. Paradoxes, yes. The unknowable, yes. But my definition of contradiction is standard: A cannot B and non-B at the same time and in the same sense.

You wrote: "It's possible there is a verse somewhere that might clear up this contradiction, but so far, you have not provided it."

* What I have provided is a logic for understanding the text, a rhyme and reason, if you will, that helps to alleviate the apparent contradiction we have been discussing. I think it is only fair for our discussion to start with an "apparent contradiction," not a bonafied contradiction. Surely, we can continue to discuss the actual argument I proffered previously, an argument I do believe elucidates the Deut. pericope. Indeed, I cannot submit any further textual criticisms until we deal with what I have already offered point-by-point. If we get that far, might I suggest adopting my perspective and following my logic the first time around? Maybe you have already done this. I assure you that I have done the same with your argument, and my major quibble is simply this: taking two texts out of context, without being informed by what the whole unit points to, is not sound biblical (or textual) criticism.

Since you crossed over from the world of phenomena into the metaphysical, I must at least offer a rebuttal to your theological proposition: "I must at least point out that it is senseless for an omniscient being to put conditions on prophecies if he knows those conditions will not be met."

* You will find my response to this in the previous post. My simple response is that this omniscient being is not a puppeteer. The being is a person, not a postulate. The being desires, will, moves, and reacts. He has ordained it thus. This is the plain logic of the texts that I dealt with in the previous post. It is the logic I have adopted.

Regarding your last comment, while I have not spent much time on the NT, predictions like the Olivet discourse, the Apocalypse, etc., do, I believe, fall into the categories I have listed above. But I think the topic at hand is large enough, and, at any rate, foundational for our understanding prophecy in general. Another thread on NT predictions would be interesting, though. For example, we can talk about how the Christ has not returned (in body) yet, and how that relates to the immiment predictions found in the NT.

As an aside, I am very interested how someone knowledgable in Judaica (Apikorus, et al.) takes the argument and categorization of OT prophecies that I expounded upon in the previous post.

Regards,

CJD

YHWHtruth

The prophet Daniel incorrectly states that in the third year of the reign of King Jehoiakim Nebuchadnezzar is king and that he conquers Judah.

Really?

At Daniel 1:1 we read the following:


"In the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim the king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it."


Referring to a later period, Daniel 2:1 reads:

"And in the second year of the kingship of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams; and his spirit began to feel agitated, and his very sleep was made to be something beyond him."

How do I interpret these scriptures?
With regards to "the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim" referred to at Daniel 1:1, the following comments are offered:

"Second Kings 24:1 shows that Nebuchadnezzar brought pressure upon the Judean king "and so Jehoiakim became his servant [or vassal] for three years. However, he [Jehoiakim] turned back and rebelled against him [Nebuchadnezzar]. "Evidently it is to this third year of Jehoiakim as a vassal king under Babylon that Daniel refers at Daniel 1:1."—Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, p. 1269.
"This "third year" of vassalage to Babylon would be the eleventh year of Jehoiakim's entire reign

And, the "second year" of Nebuchadnezzar mentioned at Daniel 2:1, is interpreted as follows:

"The book of Daniel states that it was in "the second year" of Nebuchadnezzar's kingship (probably counting from the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. and therefore actually referring to his 20th regnal year) that Nebuchadnezzar had the dream about the golden-headed image. (Da 2:1

"In the second year after Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., which would be the twentieth year of his kingship over Babylon but the second year of his exercise of world domination, he had a dream that was a prophecy from God. (Dan. 2:1

How can I say these things, especially when the Scriptures appear to be so clear on the matter? Is it not a deliberate distortion of God's Word to suggest that these scriptures do not mean what they say?

Daniel 1:1
The Bible encyclopedia, summarizes my position on Daniel 1:1 well:

"Second Kings 24:1 shows that Nebuchadnezzar brought pressure upon the Judean king "and so Jehoiakim became his servant [or vassal] for three years. However, he [Jehoiakim] turned back and rebelled against him [Nebuchadnezzar]." Evidently it is to this third year of Jehoiakim as a vassal king under Babylon that Daniel refers at Daniel 1:1. It could not be Jehoiakim's third year of his 11-year reign over Judah, for at that time Jehoiakim was a vassal, not to Babylon, but to Egypt's Pharaoh Necho. It was not until Jehoiakim's fourth year of rule over Judah that Nebuchadnezzar demolished Egyptian domination over Syria-Palestine by his victory at Carchemish (625 B.C.E. [apparently after Nisan]). (Jer 46:2) Since Jehoiakim's revolt against Babylon led to his downfall after about 11 years on the throne, the beginning of his three-year vassalage to Babylon must have begun toward the end of his eighth year of rule, or early in 620 B.C.E

Can this explanation be substantiated? A detailed examination of the Biblical and historical facts bears out that it can. However, let us first establish some of the surrounding details.
Critics of this verse often put forward the idea that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Judah and took captives in his accession year (605 B.C.E., according to secular chronology). By their reasoning, this enables them to suggest that the seventy years of servitude commenced at this time, even though, in actuality, this would amount to only 67 years. Some of these critics have gone on the record stating that the year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign is not mentioned along with the "third year of Jehoiakim" at Daniel 1:1, because it was Nebuchadnezzar's accession year. Incidentally, this claim is false. Nebuchadnezzar ascended to the throne following the battle of Carchemish, which didn't occur until the fourth year of Jehoiakim. This is attested to by the Scriptures (Jeremiah 46:2), and is also supported by Jewish historian Josephus, and most modern-day historical references that deal with the subject. For example, the Handbook of Biblical Chronology, by historian Jack Finegan (Princeton University, 1964), p. 200 states: "According to the contemporary prophet Jeremiah, the battle of Carchemish took place in the fourth year of King Jehoiakim of Judah." After a detailed examination of Jeremiah's claim, Finegan concludes on p. 201: "This was in fact in the fourth year of King Jehoiakim as stated in Jer 46:2."
But what about Jeremiah 25:1, where "the fourth year of Jehoiakim" is equated with the "first year of Nebuchadnezzar?" Finegan goes on to explain:

"In Hebrew the words are hashshanah haroshniyt. The phrase is not found elsewhere but we recognize, modifying the word "year," the feminine singular form of the adjective which can mean either "first" or "beginning." Since a related noun is used in the standard designation of an accession year, the phrase in Jer 25:1 probably also means the "beginning year," i.e., the accession year, of Nebuchadnezzar. Accepting this as the correct translation, the synchronism in Jer 25:1 is correct and in agreement with that in Jer 46:2. The fourth year of Jehoiakim included the battle of Carchemish and the accession of Nebuchadnezzar to the throne of Babylon."—Handbook of Biblical Chronology, Jack Finegan, Princeton University, 1964, p. 202.

Thus, Jewish historian Josephus was correct in reporting that "in the fourth year of the reign of Jehoiakim, one whose name was Nebuchadnezzar took the government over the Babylonians." (Antiquities of the Jews, Book X, Chapter VI, Verse 1) The Bible confirms the testimony that Nebuchadnezzar did not defeat Egypt until the fourth year of Jehoiakim, up until which point Judah continued as a vassal to Egypt:

"This is what occurred as the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the nations: For Egypt, concerning the military force of Pharaoh Necho the king of Egypt, who happened to be by the river Euphrates at Carchemish, whom Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, the king of Judah."—Jeremiah 46:1-2.

The Biblical testimony on this subject does not end there. The book of Jeremiah contains the "the words of Jeremiah ._._. to whom the word of Jehovah occurred." (Jeremiah 1:1-2) These included Jeremiah's prophetic pronouncements against disobedient Judah, which began in the thirteenth year of Josiah, and continued down to the "the completion of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah, the king of Judah, until Jerusalem went into exile in the fifth month." (Jeremiah 1:3) After some 23 years of continuous prophesying, specifically in the fourth and fifth years of Jehoiakim's reign, we read of the nature of Jeremiah's message at this time:

"Now it came about in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, the king of Judah, that this word occurred to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying: "Take for yourself a roll of a book, and you must write in it all the words that I have spoken to you against Israel and against Judah and against all the nations, since the day that I spoke to you, since the days of Josiah, clear down to this day. Perhaps those of the house of Judah will listen to all the calamity that I am thinking of doing to them, to the end that they may return, each one from his bad way, and that I may actually forgive their error and their sin."—Jeremiah 36:1-3.
"Now it came about in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, the king of Judah, in the ninth month, that all the people in Jerusalem and all the people that were coming in from the cities of Judah into Jerusalem proclaimed a fast before Jehovah. ._._. And against Jehoiakim the king of Judah you should say, 'This is what Jehovah has said: "You yourself have burned up this roll, saying, 'Why is it that you have written on it, saying: "The king of Babylon will come without fail and will certainly bring this land to ruin and cause man and beast to cease from it"?'"—Jeremiah 36:9, 29.

The above scriptures suggest that by the "fifth year of Jehoiakim," Nebuchadnezzar had not yet come up against Judah, for Jehoiakim confidently rejects the words of Jeremiah in disbelief, inasmuch as he burned up the roll upon which Jeremiah's words were written.
Yet, some contend that statements made by Berossus, a Babylonian priest of Bel who lived more than 250 years after the fact, indicate that Nebuchadnezzar did in fact take Jewish captives in his accession year. Nevertheless, it has been observed that "many modern scholars have been inclined to distrust Berossus." (A Scheme of Babylonian Chronology, Duncan Macnaughton, London, 1930, p. 2) Aside from the fact that there are no cuneiform tablets supporting Berossus' alleged claim (whereas cuneiform documentation does exist for Nebuchadnezzar's first siege against Judah in his 7th year1), it is unlikely that Nebuchadnezzar took captives from Judah after the battle of Carchemish, as we are told that, although having defeated Egypt, "he was prevented from following up his advantage immediately because the death of his father in Babylon made it necessary for him to return home to be crowned." (Biblical Archaeology, Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1979 edition, p. 177.) Along similar lines, A History of Ancient Israel and Judah, by J. Maxwell Miller and John H. Hayes, adds that "The young Babylonian crown prince [Nebuchadnezzar] had to depart Syria speedily upon receiving word of the death of his father." (p. 389)
Also, it is noteworthy that Jewish historian Josephus specifically reports that Nebuchadnezzar did not take Jewish captives in his accession year:

"Now in the fourth year of the reign of Jehoiakim, one whose name was Nebuchadnezzar ._._. the king of Babylon passed over Euphrates, and took all Syria, as far as Pelusium, excepting Judea."—Antiquities of the Jews, Book X, Chapter VI, Verse 1.

But even more telling is the silence of the Biblical record as to any captivity prior to the seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar when expressly dealing with the subject at Jeremiah 52:28-30. Unquestionably, a book that so extensively details the history of the Jewish nation with such candor and honesty, would not be lacking in such details if they were historically factual.
Josephus explains that it was not until Jehoiakim refused to "pay his tribute" to the Babylonian king, in Jehoiakim's third year as a vassal king (which was his eleventh year as king over the Hebrews, and Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year), that Nebuchadnezzar proceeded to lay siege to Jerusalem. (Daniel 1:1; 2 Kings 24:1; 2 Chronicles 36:5-7):

"But when Nebuchadnezzar had already reigned four years, which was the eighth of Jehoiakim's government over the Hebrews, the king of Babylon made an expedition with mighty forces against the Jews, and required tribute of Jehoiakim, and threatened, on his refusal, to make war against him. He was affrighted at his threatening, and bought his peace with money, and brought the tribute he was ordered to bring for three years. But on the third year, upon hearing that the king of the Babylonians made an expedition against the Egyptians, he did not pay his tribute."—Antiquities of the Jews, Book X, Chapter VI, Verses 1, 2.

It was a short time after this that Nebuchadnezzar took the first Jewish captives. It was expressly because of Jehoiakim's rebellion that Nebuchadnezzar took captives, for up to that point he had Jerusalem's full cooperation, as observed by historian G. Ernest Wright:

"Jehoiakim of Judah promptly submitted and remained loyal for a time before rebelling (II Kings 24:1)."—Biblical Archaeology, Westminster Press, Philadelphia, 1979 edition, p. 177, 179.

Historian and chronologist Jack Finegan further expands:

"The purpose of Nebuchadnezzar now undoubtedly included punishment of the defection of Judah and re-establishment of his control there, and in the record of the seventh year we are told explicitly of an attack upon "the city of Judah" which must mean Jerusalem."—Light from the Ancient Past, Princeton University, Second Printing, 1974, p. 222.

Josephus' account agrees with the Biblical record at Jeremiah 52:28-30, which specifically reports that Nebuchadnezzar took Jewish captives in his 7th year, 18th year and 23rd year. Critics may point out that Jeremiah 52:28-30 does not say that Nebuchadnezzar did not take captives in his accession year, however, the conclusive nature of verses 28 to 30 does not allow for this, as the highlighted portions demonstrate:

"These are the people whom Nebuchadrezzar took into exile: in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Jews.
In the eighteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar, from Jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.
In the twenty-third year of Nebuchadrezzar, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls.
All the souls were four thousand and six hundred."—Jeremiah 52:28-30.

Critics frequently put forward the theory that Nebuchadnezzar took Jewish captives in his accession year, so as to suggest that the "seventy years" commenced at this time, this is not the position generally taken by modern historians. For example, the following authoritative references support the understanding that the first Jewish captives were not taken until Nebuchadnezzar's seventh year:

A History of the Babylonians and Assyrians
by George Stephen Goodspeed, Professor of Ancient History, University of Chicago, 1927.
The Greatness That Was Babylon
H. W. F. Saggs, London University, 1962.
Archaeology and the Old Testament World
Dr. John Gray, King's College, University of Aberdeen, 1962.
Everyday Life in Babylonia and Assyria
H. W. F. Saggs, 1965.
Light from the Ancient Past
Jack Finegan, Princeton University, 1974.
Biblical Archaeology
G. Ernest Wright, Westminster, 1979.

Furthermore, it would be nonsensical to suggest that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Jerusalem and took captives in his accession year, and then didn't demand tribute (i.e., vassalage) from Jehoiakim for another four to five years. It was only after having already served faithfully as a tributary king under Nebuchadnezzar for three years, and then rebelling, that Nebuchadnezzar saw fit to punish Judah.
Interestingly, the verses immediately following Daniel 1:1 may provide the most convincing evidence that Daniel was not referring to the third year of Jehoiakim's kingship over Judah:

"In the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim the king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it. In time Jehovah gave into his hand Jehoiakim the king of Judah and a part of the utensils of the house of the [true] God, so that he brought them to the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and the utensils he brought to the treasure-house of his god.
Then the king said to Ashpenaz his chief court official to bring some of the sons of Israel and of the royal offspring and of the nobles, children in whom there was no defect at all, but good in appearance and having insight into all wisdom and being acquainted with knowledge, and having discernment of what is known, in whom also there was ability to stand in the palace of the king; and to teach them the writing and the tongue of the Chaldeans."—Daniel 1:1-4.

Verse 2 relates that Jehovah gave Jehoiakim and "a part of the utensils" of the temple into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar. This event certainly did not occur in Jehoiakim's third year over Judah, as 2 Kings 23:36 and 2 Chronicles 36:5 tell us that Jehoiakim reigned in Jerusalem for a total of eleven years. Those who attempt to equate this event (at Daniel 1:2) with the tributary submission mentioned at 2 Kings 24:1 seem to ignore the fact that a siege was not necessary to persuade Jehoiakim to submit; the siege is mentioned only in connection with Jehoiakim's rebellion after having served faithfully for three years. Thus, Jehoikim's being given into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar did not occur in his third year over Judah, but rather, refers to the capture and death of Jehoiakim in his eleventh year, after which, 2 Kings 24:8-17 reports, Jehoiakim's son, Jehoiachin, reigned for only three months in Jerusalem before himself being taken captive to Babylon, along with "the princes and all the valiant, mighty men," which presumably included Daniel himself.
It is these "princes" and "valiant men," mentioned at 2 Kings 24:12-14 as being taken captive in the eighth year of Nebuchadnezzar, that Daniel 1:3 refers to as "royal offspring" and "nobles." The "princes" (or "royal offspring") could not have been taken captive more than once, indicating that the events described at Daniel 1:1-3 are the same as those described at 2 Kings 24:12-16 (where it is established that "all the princes and all the valiant, mighty men" were taken captive).
Also, please note that verse 3 begins with the adverb "then" (NWT, NIV, NKJV; other translations use "and," meaning "together with or along with") indicating that the events described in this verse occurred at the time of, or following, the events mentioned in the previous verse. Therefore, the exiles mentioned at Daniel 1:3 were brought to Babylon after Jehoiakim was given into Nebuchadnezzar's hand, in the eleventh year of his reign over Judah.
When these details are not overlooked, it becomes increasingly obvious that Daniel 1:1-3 is nothing more than a condensed account of 2 Kings 24:1-17 and 2 Chronicles 36:5-10. It is not unusual that Daniel omits mention of Jehoiakim's son, Jehoiachin, since his reign lasted a mere three months before he was whisked away to Babylon along with the other "royal offspring." The fact that this three month reign was considered insignificant so far as Bible prophecy is concerned is seen in the fact that Jeremiah 36:30 foretells that Jehoiakim would "come to have no one sitting upon the throne of David." True to this prophecy, during the continuing siege against Jerusalem, Jehoiachin was removed from the throne by Nebuchadnezzar shortly after his accession.
In light of the above evidence establishing that Daniel was not referring to Jehoiakim's third year of his eleven-year kingship over Judah, is it reasonable to suggest that he was stating the year of Jehoiakim's reign as a tributary king under Nebuchadnezzar?
Most definitely. As already touched upon, the Bible shows that the "siege" referred to at Daniel 1:1 is a parallel account to that described at 2 Kings 24:1-2, which plainly states that Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Judah after Jehoiakim rebelled upon completing three years of tributary kingship to the Babylonian king:

"In his days Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon came up, and so Jehoiakim became his servant for three years. However, he turned back and rebelled against him. And Jehovah began to send against him marauder bands of Chaldeans and marauder bands of Syrians and marauder bands of Moabites and marauder bands of the sons of Ammon, and he kept sending them against Judah to destroy it."—2 Kings 24:1-2.

Additionally, becoming a vassal to a foreign king was a significant political event, which could easily change the terms by which a king's reign was reckoned. Historian and chronologist Jack Finegan presents details to that effect:

"At that time and in connection with that submission Jehoiakim may very well have accepted the Babylonian calendar. As late as the eighteenth year of Josiah the old Israelite year was still in use and the regnal year began in the fall, and the same was probably true up to the present point in the reign of Jehoiakim. But with the acceptance of the Babylonian calendar the regnal year would begin in the spring."—Handbook of Biblical Chronology, Princeton University, 1964, pp. 202-3.

So, instead of trying to reconcile the king's past reign under the new Babylonian calendar, which would introduce a seven-month shift (and confusion) into the equation, the Jews may have kept a separate count of Jehoiakim's kingship under Nebuchadnezzar.
In summary, as the preceding evidence demonstrates, the "third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim," referred to at Daniel 1:1 cannot be referring to his third year over Judah, and therefore, is presumably expressed in terms of Jehoiakim's tributary kingship.

Daniel 2:1
Once it has been established that Daniel 1:1 refers to the third year of Jehoiakim's tributary kingship under Nebuchadnezzar, the meaning of Daniel 2:1 is immediately affected, for Daniel would not have been brought to Babylon until Nebuchadnezzar's eighth regnal year, and therefore could not stand before the king in his "second year."
Despite this foregone conclusion, there is further evidence supporting this position, which in turn, corroborates the evidence put forth regarding Daniel 1:1.
Daniel 1:3-5, 18 demonstrates that Daniel 2:1 cannot be referring to Nebuchadnezzar's second regnal year:

"Then the king said to Ashpenaz his chief court official to bring some of the sons of Israel and of the royal offspring and of the nobles, children in whom there was no defect at all, but good in appearance and having insight into all wisdom and being acquainted with knowledge, and having discernment of what is known, in whom also there was ability to stand in the palace of the king; and to teach them the writing and the tongue of the Chaldeans. Furthermore, to them the king appointed a daily allowance from the delicacies of the king and from his drinking wine, even to nourish them for three years, that at the end of these they might stand before the king. ._._. And at the end of the days that the king had said to bring them in, the principal court official also proceeded to bring them in before Nebuchadnezzar."—Daniel 1:3-5, 18.

Yes, during a three-year educational program Daniel and his companions were to learn the "the writing and the tongue of the Chaldeans." This would be a necessary step, since Jehovah foretold that the "house of Israel" would become subject to a nation "whose language [they] do not know, and [they] cannot hear [understandingly] what they speak." (Jeremiah 5:15) It would not have been until after the completion of this three-year educational program, "at the end of the days that the king had said to bring them in," (Daniel 1:18) that Daniel could likely serve in any useful capacity before the king, and even after which, a reasonable amount of time would have to have passed before he came to be recognized as one of the "wise men" of Babylon eligible for death at the hand of Nebuchadnezzar. (Daniel 2:12, 13) Therefore, if Daniel 2:1 was in fact referring to Nebuchadnezzar's second regnal year, the testimony at Daniel 1:3-5, 18 could not be true.
However, at least one critic has asserted that Nebuchadnezzar's accession year must be added to the "second year" mentioned at Daniel 2:1 to compensate for the apparent discrepancy. However, there are at least two problems with this point of view.
According to cuneiform documentation, Nebuchadnezzar's accession year began in September, and therefore was only one half-year in duration, completing in the Babylonian month of Nisanu (or March/April of the following year on our calendar). Secondly, when Daniel says "in the second year of the kingship of Nebuchadnezzar" he is indicating that Nebuchadnezzar's second regnal year had not yet completed. Even when Nebuchadnezzar's accession year is included, the entire time period covered could amount to as little as a year-and-a-half. On the other hand, had the dream occurred at the end of his second year, which it does not state, this would still only amount to a maximum of two-and-a-half years, whereas Daniel chapter 1 specifically reports that Daniel and his companions were brought before the king after a period of three years had elapsed.
It is apparently because of this that some Hebrew scholars have suggested that the rendition of Daniel 2:1 should read "twelfth year" instead of "second year," as born out in the footnote on Daniel 2:1 in Biblia Hebraica, by Rudolf Kittel, ninth edition of 1954, and in the footnote in The Cross-Reference Bible, Variorum Edition, by Harold E. Monser, B.A., edition of 1910. (publication "Babylon the Great Has Fallen!" God's Kingdom Rules!)
In the final analysis, though, this "second year" most likely refers to the second year of Nebuchadnezzar following the destruction of Jerusalem, which would be the twentieth year of his reign over Babylon. Two years prior to this, the dethronement of Zedekiah took place, completely abolishing the Judean kingship with "no one sitting on the throne of David" (Jeremiah 36:30), until its prophesied restoration to occur at the end of the "appointed times of the nations." (Ezekiel 21:26-27; Luke 21:24) With the removal of Zedekiah's crown, the entire nation of Judah fell under direct servitude to the king of Babylon, no longer possessing its own king as intermediary, as had previously been the case with Judah's tributary submission to Babylon (and to other nations prior to this). From a Jewish point of view, this would in fact be the "second year of the kingship of Nebuchadnezzar"; Nebuchadnezzar had, in effect, become the king of the Jews. Furthermore, by overturning Jehovah's typical kingdom, he had also acquired sovereignty over all nations of the world. It is therefore not the least bit unusual that Daniel would choose to refer to his kingship in these terms.

Summary
It is not by mere chance or coincidence that the explanations offered by me work out. They are not the product of twisting scriptures, but rather, they result when one endeavors to harmonize all Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16), recognizing that every word, no matter how apparently insignificant, comprises the
unfailing Word of God.

Max

mark9950

You may have forgotten about the history books and artifacts of proof.

Many history books can disprove the scripture and the bible.

Now if history can in a way parallel the bible than it may be credible and true,If the bible cannot parallel history than we have a problem.

There is proof of King Sargon,the akkadians,mesopotamians,sumerians and babylonians(the artifacts of these ancient civilazations are in iraq and the middle eastern museums).

The enuma elish and epic of giglamesh are ancient writings where the bible was probably inspired from.

http://ragz-international.com/sargon_the_great.htm

http://www.publicbookshelf.com/publi...graphy_hg.html

These two writings on the tablets date to 2000 bc or earlier.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm

http://www.history.uiuc.edu/NewCours..._Giglamesh.htm

Now when was the bible written down?

Where did the bible writers live when they wrote the bible?

We know that the enuma and epic were written LONG BEFORE THE BIBLE these two were written in akkadian cuniform not hebrew.So how do we REALLY know that THE GOD wrote the bible instead of men, writing their own versions of the enuma and epic since these two writings were written first?

Or are we saying that The GOD may have written the enuma or epic?

Hawkingfan

Well, at least you admitted it.
Fallacy of Composition.

CJD

"Fallacy of Composition," Hawkingfan smirks at the screen, wiping the drool from his chin.

Hardly a fallacy. If I had made that comment without backing it up textually, then maybe you could propose that challenge. As it is, I have shown the following: "All OT predictions have implicit conditions, therefore OT predictions are not rigid, specific prognostications."

Regards,

CJD

Calzaer

CJD: Please take YHWHtruth back to your secret meeting room and decide between the two of you which one is the True Christian. You can't honestly expect us to argue against both of you when your beliefs may as well comprise to completely different religions.

CJD

Well, quite frankly, we do belong to two different religions. But I am currently engaging in a discussion in this thread, and am still waiting so-and-so's response. Besides, ignoring is always an option, Calzaer. As I have just noted elsewhere, it is a matter of plausibility. If my explanation is more plausible, then deal with (I'm assuming you've heard Max's explanation a-gazillion times). What I honestly expect is for thinking individuals to wrestle with what I've said. Nothing more or less.

I haven't missed your main point, either. Max and I would have a serious conflict on certain issues. But it's a non sequitur to assume that that undermines everyone else's argument.

CJD

Hawkingfan

No, only if you would have textually supported ALL of the prophecies in the OP. But if you textually support a weak prophecy that I don't believe was even mentioned (strawman), and conclude that all the other prophecies can be excused similarly but WITHOUT providing the support, then that is a Fallacy of Composition.

Jeremy Pallant

[MODERATOR]

I notice the possibility for some...tension...in this thread. Please remember that this is Bibilical Criticism and Archaeology. It is a place for civil discussion. Let's try and keep it that way, okay?

[/MODERATOR]

Calzaer

No, it really does. Who are we supposed to believe? Even if we convert to your version of Christianity, Max would say we're still going to Hell. Pascal's Wager breaks down even within your own system at this level.

How are we supposed to know what a Christian is unless you people come to some sort of consensus before trying to recruit? Right now it just looks like everyone's out to stock their own little "team".

The most obnoxious part is that just when it looks like Max is cornered, you'll pop up with this "Oh, it's obviously not supposed to be taken literally!" line, and the goalpost moves about 12 feet. Then just when you're being cornered, Max tags back in with "Of course it's literal, it's the unfailing word of God" and the goalpost moves another 12 feet.

But the real problem is, I have no more reason to believe you than anyone else on this subject. The only possible verification you could have is through consensus with other members of your faith; but many other members of your faith say you're not really a member of their faith because you believe these things! The tag-team match aside, could you PLEASE get together and decide what makes a True Christian before showing up here and doing the "Fisher of Men" routine? I might get caught by the wrong fisher and end up going to Hell anyway.