Amie

Hi winstonjen
During his prayers in Gethsemane while he did ask for the cup to be taken from him he also said "may your will be done" and "not as I will but as you will".
Gods will was more important than his own life.

winstonjen

Considering that Jesus' life could be replaced on a whim, I don't think that his life would be worth very much if he could just get it back. Water is not worth very much because it is plentiful. Jesus' life as an individual is easily replaced, according to the bible.

Radorth

I'll say. And after hearing your endless lecture about how an omnipotent being should act, I'm not sure I could possibly explain it to you.

(Sigh) Again you never said just how God should fix everything. Should he come down and whack pro-lifers over the head? Your post is meaningless, practically speaking.

Meanwhile, if he allows Christ to die for our sins, all his goals are achieved without violence. He does not have to come down and whack all your protagonists over the head to achieve YOUR definition of justice. He can save ANY person he wants because Christ has paid their debts. And he shows his great love for us by NOT just whacking people over the head.

It's beyond brilliant. The cross is the reason Christianity is the ONLY "religion" which can do all that. It is the ONLY religion which could save the thief on the cross and still leave God faultless and righteous in the end.

Rad

Yellum Notnef

WHY does someone have have to die to pay for our sins?
Let me get this straight......
These sins of ours are horrible and need to be wiped clean,BUT they need to be wiped away in a manner that won`t harm the humans doing the sinning because god loves us and doesn`t want to hurt us. But he`s just gotta hurt SOMEBODY because thats how he his so he breaks of a little piece of himself,sends it to Earth and takes it all out on the little piece (jesus).

Your god is supposably able to do anything and THIS is the system he comes up with????? This is pretty messed up. ALL this is going on in Gods MIND (the sinning,the disgust about the sinning and method to make him feel better about about it all) so why not just wipe the slate clean without going through all this nonsense? We would never be the wiser about what had happened and nobody 2000 years later would be arguing over the validity of the ridiculous method he (god) allegedly chose to fix a problem that was bugging him.


This shows more than anything else that so many mytholgies have been blended together to the point where all the original elements have lost their meanings and none of it no longer makes any sense at all.



It`s ridiculous.

scombrid

Yahweh avoid violence? Not according to what I've been taught about him.

Sabine Grant

in there any evidence to support any biblical claim? no...I have made it clear in numerous threads that I do not justify my faith by evidence or proof of anything. You may want to bark at another tree.....

Dr Rick

If a god cannot save "ANY person he wants," then why doesn't he?

...or to anyone else.

An omnipotent god would know how to do it



Using violence to achieve one's goals is not acheiving one's goals without violence.

...he throws most of them into an eternal lake of fire; by comparison, a "whack" on the head would be an act of selfless mercy and compassion



...it's completely insane



That's just silly; lots of religions make absolutely no sense.



An omnipotent god would have an infinite number of options; limiting his possibilities to only one deprives him of omnipotence.

Rick

Shadowy Man

Wasn't Jesus' death kind of a token action anyway since he was resurrected a couple of days later?

SanDiegoAtheist

Actually, this isn't a very good way to prove someone's love for anything.

Truthfully, it smacks of codependence and passive aggressiveness.

"Hey, I'll show you how much I love you - I'll get you to kill me, then you'll feel bad about it"

Sorry, but any person who attempted to 'prove' their love in this way for me or for anyone is sick and needs mental help. But the Bible proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the mental character of Yahweh anyway (well, rather, it shows the mental character of the ignorant bronze age folk who created him).

Radorth, you STILL have yet to address the question...

HOW is it that an OMNIPOTENT (e.g. can do ANYTHING he wants) deity is COMPELLED to achieve the salvation of a race which HE created AS THEY ARE, in such a gruesome and fundamentally injust method?

Please note the capitalized words - they are important, because if you can't figure out how an omnipotent being can be compelled to do anything, you're in the same boat as we are - and unless you can manage to resolve that particular paradox, we aren't likely to take your explanation seriously.

Please note, God's nature is no excuse, never has been, as an OMNIPOTENT being can, of course, devise an infinite number of ways to accomplish any end desired, using an infinite number of means.

Claiming that "God's morals aren't ours" is also a copout, as you just basically annulled the entire Bible. After all, if "God's morals aren't ours", then who's to say that the entire Bible is merely a sham, because lying after all, isn't a sin to God, since his morals aren't ours. So the fact that a substantive sacrifice is fundamentally UNJUST to OUR morals is also quite a paradox that needs to be resolved.

If God's definition of "Justice", "Love", "Kindness", etc. are fundamentally different enough from ours that something that to us is FUNDAMENTALLY INJUST (sacrifice of another to atone for ones own flaws) is "Just" to God, then you have no business stating that God is "Just", "Love", or "Kind" - because YOU do not know God's definition of those terms. By OUR definition, the ONLY one we have to work with, God is "UNjust".

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

Jayjay

Thank you, Radorth, for proving everyone else's point by not backing up your ludicruous claim that crucifixion was "brilliant". Instead, you just repeated it, and went as far as to say that it's "beyond brilliant" without actually telling us why it is so. My guess is that next you'll refute our arguments by saying that what Jesus did was "brialliance squared" or some other variation, and continue to not address the issue. That strategy has worked pretty well so far, hasn't it? Ignorance is bliss.