Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Lost Number · 08-08-2002, 02:06 AM

It's rather long, but I encourage people to at least skim through this link:
<a href="http://www.lorencoleman.com/mothmanfile.html" target="_blank">http://www.lorencoleman.com/mothmanfile.html</a>

Ok, let's momentarily adopt some Christian reasoning here.

Clearly There was not enough time for a legend to develop over some minor incident like, say, some guy running around in a giant moth costume. We also see that, like Jesus, he allegedly fulfilled prophecies. We have multiple eyewitnesses (over 100 of them). And, unlike the Gospels who's origins are quite obscure; this one is documented in modern times by well respected news sources, in an era of reason and scientific enlightement (even it if was in 'Thuh Deep South').

So, when Jesus Christ and the Mothman step into the ring, who wins? The Mothman, easily. He stands victorious unscratched after K.O.'ing Jesus with just a quick few hits.

Obviously then, those who deny the Mothman are just plain irrational. That is, unless we abandon the 'logic' that Christians use...

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: The Lost Number ]</p>

cloudyphiz · 08-08-2002, 05:43 AM

from the link:

Quote:

More than 100 people reported seeing a 9-foot-tall, black, winged creature with glowing red eyes.

silly heathen, don't you know that what they're describing is in fact SATAN.

Ted Hoffman · 08-08-2002, 06:18 AM

The Lost Number

Quote:

It began in mid-November 1966, when two couples, parked at an old World War II munitions dump site that the locals called TNT, say they were chased by a large creature. They reported the incident to the police, and the sightings continued from there. Some said the creature chased them to the ground. Others suffered from bleeding eyes after reportedly seeing it. Many never slept well again. It did not help to calm fears when the town's investigative reporter Mary Hyre, who had devoted much ink to the Mothman, died suddenly.

No useful names: "investigative reporter Mary Hyre" worked for which news agency/ newspaper/ magazine?
"two couples", called who?
"Others" like who?
This has fiction written all over it.
Bleeding eyes? doctors reports which hospitals handled such cases?
Chased them to the ground? Where were they on a hill?

Hilda Austin says "Some of it was just hoax. It could have been something spawned by the toxic ground from the TNT area. Some of the eyewitnesses were on drugs. I thought it was a hoot [when this happened]; everyone just sort of laughed at this. They just thought it was preposterous."
So that means, even if true, there are plenty of other naturalistic possibilities/ explanations.

Quote:

But others, like cryptozoologist and author Loren Coleman, said there is a history of this kind of lore in the Ohio River Valley. The Native American tribes of the area had a long history of chronicling stories about Thunderbirds�large "bird-man" figures that were always harbingers of woe.

Aah, so they have a background of such claims? makes sense.

Quote:

Mothman, they are hoping, will bring them better fortunes.

See? other possibilities abound.

Lost Number, I think its really sad that you could bring such a pathetic, falsifiable, undocumented fairy tale here for...what? debate?

Boro Nut · 08-08-2002, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Lost Number:
<strong>Jesus Christ vs. The Mothman</strong>

The way I see it, in the early rounds, Jesus would have a hard time of it, especially if his arms and legs were nailed down, but if he could hang on till darkness his halo would cause Mothman to orbit his head in ever diminishing circles, where he stood every chance of injuring himself on the projecting timbers. My money is on Jesus to win by AD35, but it's a close one.

Boro Nut

Marduk · 08-08-2002, 03:25 PM

I think Lost Numbers point wasn't to convince us that Mothman was real but to compare the reliability of Gospel accounts to Mothman accounts.
If you believe one myth why not the other type of thing.

The Lost Number · 08-08-2002, 11:56 PM

Intensity:

I explicitly said: "let's momentarily adopt some Christian reasoning here", and at the end implied it was faulty by saying: "That is, unless we abandon the 'logic' that Christians use...". I do not believe this creature is real and from the other responses, it's clear that everyone else understood it and isn't taking the idea seriously.

However, what I am arguing for is that if one believes the "evidence" for Jesus being the son of God, they have no logical reason to disbelieve the "evidence" for The Mothman, because, in spite of being bad, it's still better than that for Jesus. In other words; I'm debunking Christian evidence by giving an example of the absurdities that can be justified when believing other, unrelated evidence of the same quality.

Understand? I hope so. Now I'm again going to momentarily pretend Christian reasoning is valid, by arguing with you on this...

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It began in mid-November 1966, when two couples, parked at an old World War II munitions dump site that the locals called TNT, say they were chased by a large creature. They reported the incident to the police, and the sightings continued from there. Some said the creature chased them to the ground. Others suffered from bleeding eyes after reportedly seeing it. Many never slept well again. It did not help to calm fears when the town's investigative reporter Mary Hyre, who had devoted much ink to the Mothman, died suddenly.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No useful names: "investigative reporter Mary Hyre" worked for which news agency/ newspaper/ magazine?
"two couples", called who?
"Others" like who?
This has fiction written all over it.
Bleeding eyes? doctors reports which hospitals handled such cases?

They pointed out that this was documented in the book: "Mothman: The Facts Behind the Legend". You can check the editorial reviews on Amazon.com and it tells some of the same story (not all of it because that's not the point of a such a review). Check out the book if you want the documentation. It's certainly more trustworthy than the Gospels.

Quote:

Chased them to the ground? Where were they on a hill?

Possibly, but I think they meant the couple were chased to that location by the Mothman.

Quote:

Hilda Austin says "Some of it was just hoax. It could have been something spawned by the toxic ground from the TNT area. Some of the eyewitnesses were on drugs. I thought it was a hoot [when this happened]; everyone just sort of laughed at this. They just thought it was preposterous."
So that means, even if true, there are plenty of other naturalistic possibilities/ explanations.

Which parts were hoaxed? How many of the witnesses were on drugs, what kind of drugs were they (someone who was overly skeptical could blow out proportion healthy medical drugs to mean illegal ones), and were they on them at the time? How does this invalidate all the eyewitness testimony? I'm not an inerrantist!

In addition, it would be quite an amazing detour from biological laws for something like the mothman to be spawned from a toxic-induced biohazard.

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But others, like cryptozoologist and author Loren Coleman, said there is a history of this kind of lore in the Ohio River Valley. The Native American tribes of the area had a long history of chronicling stories about Thunderbirds�large "bird-man" figures that were always harbingers of woe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aah, so they have a background of such claims? makes sense.

Yeah. They research them. And you have a problem with this because...?

Ted Hoffman · 08-09-2002, 04:31 AM

Bacause its such a joke.
And this is a philosophical forum.

08-08-2002, 02:06 AM	#1
The Lost Number Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Somewhere in time Posts: 27	Jesus Christ vs. The Mothman It's rather long, but I encourage people to at least skim through this link: <a href="http://www.lorencoleman.com/mothmanfile.html" target="_blank">http://www.lorencoleman.com/mothmanfile.html</a> Ok, let's momentarily adopt some Christian reasoning here. Clearly There was not enough time for a legend to develop over some minor incident like, say, some guy running around in a giant moth costume. We also see that, like Jesus, he allegedly fulfilled prophecies. We have multiple eyewitnesses (over 100 of them). And, unlike the Gospels who's origins are quite obscure; this one is documented in modern times by well respected news sources, in an era of reason and scientific enlightement (even it if was in 'Thuh Deep South'). So, when Jesus Christ and the Mothman step into the ring, who wins? The Mothman, easily. He stands victorious unscratched after K.O.'ing Jesus with just a quick few hits. Obviously then, those who deny the Mothman are just plain irrational. That is, unless we abandon the 'logic' that Christians use... [ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: The Lost Number ]</p>

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08-08-2002, 03:25 PM	#5
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	I think Lost Numbers point wasn't to convince us that Mothman was real but to compare the reliability of Gospel accounts to Mothman accounts. If you believe one myth why not the other type of thing.

08-09-2002, 04:31 AM	#7
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Bacause its such a joke. And this is a philosophical forum.

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