Plump-DJ

I've always had a hard time trying to understand Pantheism. I've never quite understould what we achieve by equating God with the universe especialy in light of BB cosmology. ("God" might have begun to exist) And thus why bother with the "God" label.

I can understand Naturalism, I can understand Theism, Deism and even Panentheism but i've never quite grasped what's going on with Pantheism. Any helpful thoughts?

[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Plump-DJ ]</p>

Panta Pei

The belief statement of the World Pantheist Movement:

1. We revere and celebrate the Universe as the totality of being, past, present and future. It is self-organizing, ever-evolving and inexhaustibly diverse. Its overwhelming power, beauty and fundamental mystery compel the deepest human reverence and wonder.

2. All matter, energy, and life are an interconnected unity of which we are an inseparable part. We rejoice in our existence and seek to participate ever more deeply in this unity through knowledge, celebration, meditation, empathy, love, ethical action and art.

3. We are an integral part of Nature, which we should cherish, revere and preserve in all its magnificent beauty and diversity. We should strive to live in harmony with Nature locally and globally. We acknowledge the inherent value of all life, human and non-human, and strive to treat all living beings with compassion and respect.

4. All humans are equal centers of awareness of the Universe and nature, and all deserve a life of equal dignity and mutual respect. To this end we support and work towards freedom, democracy, justice, and non-discrimination, and a world community based on peace, sustainable ways of life, full respect for human rights and an end to poverty.

5. There is a single kind of substance, energy/matter, which is vibrant and infinitely creative in all its forms. Body and mind are indivisibly united.

6. We see death as the return to nature of our elements, and the end of our existence as individuals. The forms of "afterlife" available to humans are natural ones, in the natural world. Our actions, our ideas and memories of us live on, according to what we do in our lives. Our genes live on in our families, and our elements are endlessly recycled in nature.

7. We honor reality, and keep our minds open to the evidence of the senses and of science's unending quest for deeper understanding. These are our best means of coming to know the Universe, and on them we base our aesthetic and religious feelings about reality.

8. Every individual has direct access through perception, emotion and meditation to ultimate reality, which is the Universe and Nature. There is no need for mediation by priests, gurus or revealed scriptures.

9. We uphold the separation of religion and state, and the universal human right of freedom of religion. We recognize the freedom of all pantheists to express and celebrate their beliefs, as individuals or in groups, in any non-harmful ritual, symbol or vocabulary that is meaningful to them.

From this belief statement I have gathered that this particular pantheist organization (maybe pantheism generally) does not ascribe to the BB cosmology.

Personally, I have not perceived BB cosmology as being much different from the ex nihilo theist creed and have sought to explore other theories as more intellectually plausible such as plasma cosmology.

I am, however, an admitted rank amateur in this regard.

Hugo Holbling

May i suggest you search for posts by SmillinBuddha?

Edited to add:

Or read your Spinoza. I recall that Immanuel Kant was discussing just this is a recent thread. Ah, <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000605&p=" target="_blank">here</a> it is.

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Hugo Holbling ]</p>

garthoverman

BB Cosmology only explains the beginning of the physical universe. I, as a pantheist, acknowledge that their are alternative non-physcial states of being. Furthermore I believe that the "Big Bang" actaully represents an faded memory of an explosion of awareness that at that point began focusing on the three dimensions that compose physical reality. The universe didn't begin at the Big Bang. Instead, consciousness began at that point to focus intently upon a certain dimensional sytem primarily to the exlusion of the rest. However, the Universe and its consciousness existed "prior" to that because they are <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=001098" target="_blank">Eternal</a>.

I can't say that ALL pantheists accept the reality of non-physical existence.

(and the Eternal link was just a joke. That dude's posts make me laugh)

Plump-DJ

I've been reading over the thread linked to here, and i'm still at a loss to see how "God" fits into this. I still cannot see the benefit or real reason for ascribing to the Universe the word God.

And look at tenents 5 and 6 of the list above. I would see acceptance of those tenents as an endorsement of materialism or metaphysical naturalism. And that's what i would become if I accepted those tenets. It almost seems from the list above that pantheism is merely religious Naturalism.

To Garthoverman....

I would argue that this sounds *very* much like a thiestic or deistic cosmology. You've got the non-physical states of being (aka God) existing "prior" to the creation event of MEST.
This non-physical stuff you speak about is certainly not what i mean by universe and is not the meaning i've seen used or even understould the term to mean.

Personaly i think a little bit of equivocation of the terms being used here (especially universe) is required to ascribe the word God with a universe which (let's just assume) began to exist.(M.E.S.T) So I see deism and theism and even panentheism written all over your point here but not pantheism.

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Plump-DJ ]</p>

Amos

I am not sure but a distinction can be made between Pantheism and the pantheist perspective. Panteism is a movement as if it was a religion while the pantheist perspective is really the end of religion and of religious inquiry. To be a pantheist one does not see God in nature but one is equal with God in nature.

I like the examples of this found in Buddhism wherein "this is Buddha" and here the "this" can be any "thing" that has thingness about it.

In Catholicism the consecration of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ requires that a transformation takes place in our own mind wherein we agree that we are Christ and must consume our equals to stay alive in this great biological environment. It contains both our elevation as Christ and our humiliation as equal to bread and wine.

So Pantheism as an -ism is just a kind of a feel good movement that places us opposite to and in wonder of nature.

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Keith Russell

Greetings:

If everything is God, then where did the concept 'God' come from? Concepts are recognized as concepts only by comparison to other things.

If everything were yellow (for example) yellow would still exist, but we would not know it as 'yellow', nor would we even know it as a 'colour'. We would have no concept 'colour'--nor would we need one.

Pantheists have yet to convince me how, if everything is 'God', they came to this realization...

Keith.

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Keith Russell ]</p>

Amos

For the same reason that Gnosticsm is a heresy. The Gnostic mind is good because the gnostic is God but since God has no grandchildren we each must become God on our own.

Both the gnostic and panteist have the same noetic vision while proponents of Gnosticism and Pantheism just borrowed the title for their pursuit of happiness.

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Kent Stevens

Pantheism is one of those last ditch efforts to still have some sort of God. In order to do this you have to end up twisting a lot of words such as God, universe, religion, spirituality, consciousness, and afterlife. Then there has to be twisting of reality to remove the depressing parts of reality, such as the idea that the Sun will eventually die, or the fact that Hitler helped kill millions of people.

The problem with trying to save God in any form is that God does not exist. It is similar to trying to save Santa Claus or fairies in some form when you know that they do not exist. Having a metaphorical Santa Claus might make you feel temporarily better, but it is still an incorrect viewpoint of reality. Equating the Universe with Santa Claus or God, twists words and distorts the real nature of the Universe.

Maybe we can celebrate and commemorate various things that exist in the Universe. We can see good and bad aspects in most things. But to treat the Universe as God tends to make people put their blinkers on about the negative parts of reality, that exist along with the positive aspects of reality.

Panta Pei

Analyze this...

God is a verb, not a pronoun, describing the perpetual action of the natural universe in plain view (regardless of what you as an individual percieve as good or bad events).

The use of the word God is merely used to find contemplative focus...much like many athiests use the banner of 'Thought' as their nexus for being.

My experiences with pantheists have shown me that they do not place any more icons or symbols on the natural universe than that of scientific examination.

They merely show a reverence for this process that lifts conscious existence from the less evocative stale and sterile examination that science emerges itself in or the dogmatic limitations of the anthropocentric organized religions.

I've seen how representations found even within this very post have worked quite similarly to anti-bodies rejecting invading concepts in favor of the status quo of each individuals familiar comfort level.

This, to a pantheist, is a perfect example of the interdependent co-arising nature of the universe in which we constantly move...with the readers taking bits of information received here and assimilating it into their own perception of existence just as a cell in a quantitatively larger entity based on our scale in the cosmos.

Stll one river with many wells...follow your bliss and keep the personal symbols you find solace in.

We all belong.