ybnormal

ybnormal:
...anyway, isn't the question, "Why is it there in the first place?"
(note: the "it" was, xian discrimination)

seebs:
Because people *suck*.

Seebs, my friend... you are being a bit loose with your reasoning I think... there, you have taken my question RE: xian discrimination, and changed it into "people suck" as a response. A legitimate response could have been, "xians suck" or "christianity sucks", or if you prefer, "some xians suck", but your answering, "people suck", tends to include ME in the cause of your "xian discrimination". I resent that. I am a part of "people", but I am in NO way a part of "xian discrimination".

seebs:
Seriously; this is the teaching that spawned this thread, the belief that "people are sinful".

Actually, no! Altho a bit confusing, that is not, as I understand it, the main question of this thread.

The question was coming from a profile who lists Basic beliefs as "None. Science will answer everything in due time.." So, if I understand it, tdekeyser is asking if a nontheist and/or a nonxian is a sinner.

He is indirectly asking if I, ybnormal, is a sinner.

tdekeyser
Am I a sinner?

Thus, he was NOT asking if "people (in general) are sinful" -- my point here, is like my response above... there is a difference... a distinct difference between a xian and a nonxian.

Altho you folks fight the impossibility, I can't (and won't) be a nonxian and a xian at the same time.

I have already tried to demonstrate this "sinner" thing for you. Maybe you missed it... maybe you didn't understand it... maybe you thought it was a joke. I admit I spent all of 5 minutes writing that earlier post RE: the following exchange...

tdekeyser
I am NOT a sinner. That is absolutely OFFENSIVE.

seebs
Huh? Why?

...but my little response to that was dead serious and defines my position RE: being called a "sinner". IOW, it demonstrates that I would have just as much reason to call everyone an "asshole" as you xians have reason to call everyone a "sinner".

Like I tried to say earlier, and like tdekeyser actually said...

I am NOT a sinner. That is absolutely OFFENSIVE.

Only after ALL xians stop calling me a sinner, will I stop lumping ALL xians together.

The same xians here, who bitch and moan when I lump all xians together, by saying things like, "you xians", will turn right around and label me, as one of their personal religion's "sinners".

This is nothing but a lame attempt to force me to say, "us xians".

This is rude.

I refuse to be included. What now?

seebs

Perhaps, but if I said "because Christians suck", then I would be implying that they were worse in some way, and I don't think they are. I think it's because people, in general, love to form cliques and groups and exclude others.

Sure, but, within my belief system, *all* people, not just some people, are sinners. So, yes, you too. Just like everybody else.

Hmm. I'm not sure of that; everyone has moral failings, but not everyone is a jerk.

Hmm. So, only after ALL scientists stop saying you are biologically mortal, will you stop lumping ALL scientists together?

Huh?

What the fuck?

Sin has nothing to do with whether or not you're Christian. Sin has nothing to do with whether or not you accept my model of the world. It's an observation; it does not imply that you should believe my interpretation, or care about it, only that, in my model of the world, "all humans sin" is as reliable a statement as "all humans are mortal" or "all humans are under thirty feet tall".

It's not a judgement, and it's not meant to force you to be part of my belief system.

ybnormal

No, "all humans are mortal" is pretty much based on commonly accepted fact by everyone on earth... this "all humans sin" stuff is based on your personal "belief" system, to use your word.

How do you reconcile-- your calling me a sinner, then saying that you are not judging me?

And please don't try that argument that "sinner" has no negative connotation. It don't fly.

Seebs, let's take a step back for a moment. I understand how this can be disturbing to you... it's obviously a totally new concept for you, and because of this, I don't think you are really trying very hard to see my point.

We have all been conditioned to readily accept what you are saying, without giving it a thought... I'm asking you to give it a thought.

How about you telling me, exactly, what it is that you base your, "you are a sinner" accusation on. Or do you suggest that you've already told me.

seebs

Sure - but that's fine. I'm allowed to view the world through my personal belief system.

Well, "mortal" has negative connotations too.

Here's the thing: By the definition I use for the word, you *are*. It's inevitable. As such, it's not much of a judgement. Does it have negative connotations? Sure. So does "imperfect", but you don't get mad when people say "no one's perfect", do you?

What makes you think it's new to me? Does everyone you disagree with do so out of ignorance?

And what makes you think I haven't?

I base it on the observation that no one is perfect; that all people fail to be without flaw, and thus, sin. That's all I mean by it. If you're reading more into it, sorry; it's a term of art.

The assertion that people are sinners means only that they sin. The assertion that they sin, in turn, means only that they fail sometimes to be perfectly moral, without any flaws.

This should hardly be a surprise.

ybnormal

[error]

tdekeyser

Seebs,

"sinner" could be offensive to some who understand that word to be negative. You are saying it means "less than perfect" so it is just a fact. But I do not see it as a general statement such as that. I'm sure the bible also says this. "sinners" are not looked at as equals.....at all.

"You are a sinner" says to me, "You are flawed and less than a christian".

That is offensive to a person who has worked really hard in thier life and HAS been a good person. Regardless of faith.....

So, yes....Christians have the right to have that world view, just expect for some people to be offended.

seebs

Perhaps you should read it. It explicitly says that *ALL* have sinned. Thus, all are sinners. Thus... How can it not be equal?

Ahh. I see your concern. Here's the trick: If someone pulls this bullshit on you, call 'em on it. Don't try to deny that *you* have flaws; ask 'em to honestly say whether or not they've ever lied, stolen... If you find someone who claims not to be a sinner, you've found someone who is contradicting the Bible fairly solidly - and while you're welcome to contradict the Bible, someone who claims to be better than you because he's a Christian ought to think real hard about it first.

I think the problem is that you forgot to ask the corresponding questions: "Theists: Are you sinners?" My answer is an unambiguous "yes". I am also a sinner. We're in this together, bud.

Now I finally understand why you were so offended, and I have to admit, I fully agree; people who act like they're "better" than sinners, with *ONE* exception, are just missing the point, and that one exception has been dead for somewhere around 2000 years.

ybnormal

Well, seebs, I've made my case... looks like I can just kick back now and let you prove it for me.

yb:
...and label me, as one of their personal religion's "sinners".

This is nothing but a lame attempt to force me to say, "us xians".


seebs to td:
I am also a sinner. We're in this together, bud.

seebs

No, I was referring to life, which, as of this writing, I believe we are both doing.

There is no attempt to make you think of yourself as a Christian. That's your paranoia, not my activity.

Your basic premise - that "sinner" is some kind of attack on non-Christians, reserved only for those "worse" than Christians - is false.

The idea that this is intended to make you say "us Christians" is a silly one; it doesn't even begin to make sense.

If your complaint is people acting like they're better than you, and calling you a sinner, I have pointed out how you can make them shut up.

If your complaint is that you think this is part of a plot to make you "admit" that you're Christian, well, tough. Lots of people believe stupid shit.

However, you can't have it both ways; it can't be *both* that this is an attempt to make you think you are "one of the gang" *AND* an attack on you for not being part of the gang.

ybnormal

Actually, calling you a "sinner" is a tool xians use to include you, not exclude you. As I referenced above, seebs' putting his arm around you with his We're in this together, bud proves that. I'd think he should at least capitalize it if he's gonna call you his Buddy.

And altho I'm clearly in your corner here, I must say that you will have a difficult time proving xians are "racists", altho where I live, they are indeed. If you have the balls to use terms as loosely as xians like seebs do, then you can easily say things like, the Baptist race calls the Catholic race "nothing but a cult". Actually, you could make a good case right now that xians are being pretty damned racist regarding Muslims, who most xians where I am, seem to think are all Arabs.

Seriously tho, you can more easily make the case that xians are bigots. I've made that case a couple of times here and I haven't had a xian try to dispute it yet.

Keep up the good work and enjoy the dance.