Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Adrian Selby · 03-11-2002, 10:32 PM

<a href="http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,665684,00.html" target="_blank">http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,665684,00.html</a>

It isn't a special school.

I just wonder why classes such as this are so very rare around the world. Is it in the interests of the powers that be not to encourage critical thinking, or is that too much like a conspiracy?

Does anyone here think that such lines of questioning might lead to problems because such fledgling philosophers might find it easy to question everything and their usual assurances about what is 'right' and 'wrong' in what they're taught are removed, leaving a growing frustration?

Better perhaps to teach them 'how it is' then afterwards teach them why 'it' isn't.

(Heh, what chance classes like this in rabidly christian communities!)

Adrian

phaedrus · 03-11-2002, 11:15 PM

The old topic of herd mentality and requirement of different types of people/tasks which constitute a group. I would rather see more and more kids undergo such training which their parents lacked and which will undermine the appeal of faith-based systems.

But yes one can see the practical problems, when kids with their usual enthusiasm and inquisitivness go home and ask their parents these questions, what will the parents do? They also need to be ready right? Given that no one really has the answers to all the questions, what happends if the same is told to the kids, does it lead to some sort of existential angst? Will they loose their innocence early?

There are lots of questions that could be asked, given that we as a race never travelled down this path. But prima facie, putting some sort of faith in the human character, we could assume that such socratic way of thinking will only help us live in a better world. (But what about transhumanism?)

Francois Tremblay · 03-12-2002, 05:55 AM

We can't have people with critical thinking walking around. Why, they may even start questioning religion, or even politics ! Then we're really in trouble...

(read with a sarcastic tone)

Jamie_L · 03-12-2002, 08:43 AM

Exactly.

It's not a conspiracy in the traditional sense. But a large number of people fear critical thinking - especially in children. It trains them to challenge ideas and concepts that many adults may accept without question. This is especially true if you are dealing with a highly religious group of adults (like most communities in the U.S.).

I checked out the websites and saw that the published materials are geared towards a classroom setting. Anyone know of similar materials targetted at parents who want to expose their kids to this kind of thing informally, at home?

Jamie

Mu · 03-12-2002, 10:50 PM

what if i rationally conclude that what is "right" is for me to steal, lie, kill, cheat and do whatever makes me happy as long as i don't get caught since that would make me unhappy in the short term.

Would i get an F for the course?

Adrian Selby · 03-13-2002, 03:11 AM

probably not, but you might get detention

Adrian

Lamunus · 03-13-2002, 02:22 PM

I'm 15, and I've had philosophy lessons for 5 years at my school, which is 410 years old with a strong vein of Christianity traditionally. It is independant of the state and has its' own curriculum in a few subjects.

You're all quite correct in that this kind of critical thinking floating around leads to a lot of non-traditional viewpoints. For example, in my class of 25 middle class 15 year olds, there are 3 Christians - a catholic, an anglical and a methodist, all with fairly fundie parents, 1 muslim who goes to the mosque because his parents make him, 4 hindus- 3 of whom think it's a load of bollocks, 1 pagan and 15 atheists - mostly weak, with about 4 strong. They are also nearly all left-leaning republicans who advocate European intergration - virtually unheard of among most levels of British society.

We still have the perfunctory study of Luke's Gospel (though there's a lot of derisive sniggering when the teacher goes on about the transfiguration) and the school assemblies still have prayer - though many people just look down quietly and let them get on with it.

There isn't much angst that I know of - there aren't any existentialists or anything among the atheists, just humanism with the mixture of what society deems acceptable for the definition of right or wrong.

Lamunus

03-11-2002, 10:32 PM	#1
Adrian Selby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Farnham, UK Posts: 859	A faint hope <a href="http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,665684,00.html" target="_blank">http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,665684,00.html</a> It isn't a special school. I just wonder why classes such as this are so very rare around the world. Is it in the interests of the powers that be not to encourage critical thinking, or is that too much like a conspiracy? Does anyone here think that such lines of questioning might lead to problems because such fledgling philosophers might find it easy to question everything and their usual assurances about what is 'right' and 'wrong' in what they're taught are removed, leaving a growing frustration? Better perhaps to teach them 'how it is' then afterwards teach them why 'it' isn't. (Heh, what chance classes like this in rabidly christian communities!) Adrian

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03-11-2002, 11:15 PM	#2
phaedrus Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Indus Posts: 1,038	The old topic of herd mentality and requirement of different types of people/tasks which constitute a group. I would rather see more and more kids undergo such training which their parents lacked and which will undermine the appeal of faith-based systems. But yes one can see the practical problems, when kids with their usual enthusiasm and inquisitivness go home and ask their parents these questions, what will the parents do? They also need to be ready right? Given that no one really has the answers to all the questions, what happends if the same is told to the kids, does it lead to some sort of existential angst? Will they loose their innocence early? There are lots of questions that could be asked, given that we as a race never travelled down this path. But prima facie, putting some sort of faith in the human character, we could assume that such socratic way of thinking will only help us live in a better world. (But what about transhumanism?)

03-12-2002, 05:55 AM	#3
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	We can't have people with critical thinking walking around. Why, they may even start questioning religion, or even politics ! Then we're really in trouble... (read with a sarcastic tone)

03-12-2002, 08:43 AM	#4
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Exactly. It's not a conspiracy in the traditional sense. But a large number of people fear critical thinking - especially in children. It trains them to challenge ideas and concepts that many adults may accept without question. This is especially true if you are dealing with a highly religious group of adults (like most communities in the U.S.). I checked out the websites and saw that the published materials are geared towards a classroom setting. Anyone know of similar materials targetted at parents who want to expose their kids to this kind of thing informally, at home? Jamie

03-12-2002, 10:50 PM	#5
Mu Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mu Posts: 8	what if i rationally conclude that what is "right" is for me to steal, lie, kill, cheat and do whatever makes me happy as long as i don't get caught since that would make me unhappy in the short term. Would i get an F for the course?

03-13-2002, 03:11 AM	#6
Adrian Selby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Farnham, UK Posts: 859	probably not, but you might get detention Adrian

03-13-2002, 02:22 PM	#7
Lamunus Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bethnal Green, London. Posts: 129	I'm 15, and I've had philosophy lessons for 5 years at my school, which is 410 years old with a strong vein of Christianity traditionally. It is independant of the state and has its' own curriculum in a few subjects. You're all quite correct in that this kind of critical thinking floating around leads to a lot of non-traditional viewpoints. For example, in my class of 25 middle class 15 year olds, there are 3 Christians - a catholic, an anglical and a methodist, all with fairly fundie parents, 1 muslim who goes to the mosque because his parents make him, 4 hindus- 3 of whom think it's a load of bollocks, 1 pagan and 15 atheists - mostly weak, with about 4 strong. They are also nearly all left-leaning republicans who advocate European intergration - virtually unheard of among most levels of British society. We still have the perfunctory study of Luke's Gospel (though there's a lot of derisive sniggering when the teacher goes on about the transfiguration) and the school assemblies still have prayer - though many people just look down quietly and let them get on with it. There isn't much angst that I know of - there aren't any existentialists or anything among the atheists, just humanism with the mixture of what society deems acceptable for the definition of right or wrong. Lamunus

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