Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Perchance · 10-31-2002, 10:27 AM

I've read Christian rants in the past that focus on the aspects of death as well as the supposed performance of magic. Perhaps it's both that troubles them. After all, if someone's religious belief is partially motivated by a desire to escape death, then a supposed "celebration" of death is hardly going to sit well.

-Perchance.

brighid · 10-31-2002, 10:36 AM

Check out what these sites have to say: <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_np.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_np.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/samhain/1031_quikhistory.html" target="_blank">http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/samhain/1031_quikhistory.html</a>
From the History Channel - <a href="http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/halloween/" target="_blank">http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/halloween/</a>

Halloween as we now it in the US is pretty American. It was brought here in the 1840�s by Irish immigrants. Samhain (pronounced sow-in) is a Celtic celebration of fire, it is the Pagan New Year (celebrated Nov. 1) and it is a time of remembering the dead. It was the celebration to mark the end of summer and prepare for the cold, dark time of winter. It was believed that this time of year is when the veils between the mortal world and the world of the dead � Tir nan Og (Summerland) was the thinnest. It was believed that at this time ancestors came back to visit with their loved ones. A �black dinner� was sometimes held where an empty place was left at the table in order to encourage those ancestors to feast with the family. Some leaves out cakes and milk

The Druids did not call upon �evil spirits� to kill people and there is no God of the Dead named Samhain in Celtic mythology. Neo-pagans do not worship a malevolent, demon deity named Satan. Satan is a Christian construct unfamiliar to the Celtic pantheon.

Having participated in many Samhain festivals I can tell you that nothing could be farther from the truth then what your friends is saying. He has bought the Christian propaganda hook, line and sinker and he should be chastised for failing to investigate those claims from less biased sources and actually attempt to use critical thinking skills.

Samhain/Halloween is about celebrating the fruits of this year�s harvest, the harvest of ones own hopes, dreams and work as well as the fruits of the Earth. It is a time to remember those who have passed on and to embrace the wisdom of the darkness and cold, as it provides the opportunity for quiet reflection and appreciation of the sun, it's warmth and life giving force. It is a time to plant new seeds so they may be cultivated in the Spring, the seeds of those desires and those that will actually bloom with the coming of the sun and rain.

This is the time of the year where the days get shorter and the nights longer. The Sun God looses His battle with the God of the Death and Darkness, only to return triumphant in the Spring. It is the cycle of birth, death and rebirth � as happens to all things in nature. Not to mention it�s fun to dress up, eat lots of rich foods, candies and sweets and just celebrate the fact that you are alive!

Brighid

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]

Writer@Large · 10-31-2002, 10:45 AM

The best researched, the most in-depth, and (to my knowledge)the most correct response to accusations of "Satanic" Halloween or the "evil druidic origins" of the same can be found here:

<a href="http://www.illusions.com/halloween/" target="_blank">Halloween: Myths, Monsters, and Devils</a>.

Make your friend read it; if he still persists in insisting Halloween is evil, than he truly is a raving fundy, for he will be ignoring actual evidence, instead of fear-induced myth and lore.

Another good history is <a href="http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/samhain/1031_realorigins.html" target="_blank">Issac Bonewits' The Real Origins of Halloween</a>. Unlike the above link, though, this one is written by a neo-pagan, and your friend would likely find that an unacceptable bias.

--W@L

Harumi · 10-31-2002, 10:50 AM

Thank you.

I will show a printout of the sites you recommended, not so much to convince the fundie (because he's completely hopeless), but to convince my English friend, who's parents bought the propaganda and she's bought it too.

The "My parents told me so" really doesn't cut it once you become a skeptic, doesn't it? Would have worked once though. Which is what scares me.

I ranted to my friends and described the conversation to them. Half of them were theists, and all of them had the same reaction as I had.

I don't know whether it is because of critical thinking or because of the culture in which they were raised. Nevertheless, I was hesitant to celebrate my triumph so I brought it here, where intelligent people can give me honest answers not influenced from bias or propaganda.

Harumi · 10-31-2002, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Abacus:


I could be mistaken, but weren't Christmas and Easter originally pagan holidays? If so, what would he think of that?

The fool doesn't celebrate those holidays either. When his family celebrates it though, he claims that it was influenced by Christianity and therefore "not that bad".

It's his inconsistencies that really make my blood boil, although his beliefs come close.

Abacus · 10-31-2002, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Harumi:
The fool doesn't celebrate those holidays either.

He must be a True Christian.

I first heard of the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter from fundies. Maybe your friend knows this too.

Harumi · 10-31-2002, 11:17 AM

Which reminds me,

I used "fool" to describe him! I must be involved in devil worship! I must be going to hell!

*does sexy, evil, demonic dance*

raimee · 10-31-2002, 12:33 PM

Well, as adults we know that Halloween can be traced back in human history some 2K years to dysfunctional Celtic farmers. But why do people recognize it today?<a href="http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2002/October/20/biz/stories/01biz.htm" target="_blank">Big Business</a> It drives they economy!

So lets just call it what it is and get on with it. And it's hardly 'trick or treat'. It's more
like 'pass the candy'.

Yes, I knocked on a few doors in my childhood. And with no idea why other than I could fill bags with candy. So I don't begrudge the expense and inconvenience now, just the B.S. that shoved down our throats from the marketing mages.

Wyz_sub10 · 10-31-2002, 12:34 PM

We had a discussion on this thread

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=54&t=000910" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=54&t=000910</a>

about the "evils of Halloween" based on the insight of Jack Chick.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Wyz_sub10 ]

Sabine Grant · 10-31-2002, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM:
Fwiw:

<a href="http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2002/10/28/halloween/?x" target="_blank">Despite the fact that conservative Christians in America have protested the "pagan" revelry of Halloween, the holiday owes its name and many of its trappings to Christianity.</a>

Helen

In an effort to suppress pre existing paganism, Pope Gregory III, around A.D 735, made Nov.1st All Saints Day. The official decree was established under Gregory IV about one hundred year later.
By pre existing paganism, the church's concern was the two autumn Roman Festivals combined with the Celtic Festival of Sahmain ( which occured as the Romans began the conquest of the Celts in AD 43 and ruled much of what is the United Kingdom now, for 400 years).
Feralia was held in October to honor the Dead. The other festival honored Pomona. the Roman goddess of fruit and trees.

10-31-2002, 10:36 AM	#12
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Check out what these sites have to say: <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_np.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_np.htm</a> <a href="http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/samhain/1031_quikhistory.html" target="_blank">http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/samhain/1031_quikhistory.html</a> From the History Channel - <a href="http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/halloween/" target="_blank">http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/halloween/</a> Halloween as we now it in the US is pretty American. It was brought here in the 1840�s by Irish immigrants. Samhain (pronounced sow-in) is a Celtic celebration of fire, it is the Pagan New Year (celebrated Nov. 1) and it is a time of remembering the dead. It was the celebration to mark the end of summer and prepare for the cold, dark time of winter. It was believed that this time of year is when the veils between the mortal world and the world of the dead � Tir nan Og (Summerland) was the thinnest. It was believed that at this time ancestors came back to visit with their loved ones. A �black dinner� was sometimes held where an empty place was left at the table in order to encourage those ancestors to feast with the family. Some leaves out cakes and milk The Druids did not call upon �evil spirits� to kill people and there is no God of the Dead named Samhain in Celtic mythology. Neo-pagans do not worship a malevolent, demon deity named Satan. Satan is a Christian construct unfamiliar to the Celtic pantheon. Having participated in many Samhain festivals I can tell you that nothing could be farther from the truth then what your friends is saying. He has bought the Christian propaganda hook, line and sinker and he should be chastised for failing to investigate those claims from less biased sources and actually attempt to use critical thinking skills. Samhain/Halloween is about celebrating the fruits of this year�s harvest, the harvest of ones own hopes, dreams and work as well as the fruits of the Earth. It is a time to remember those who have passed on and to embrace the wisdom of the darkness and cold, as it provides the opportunity for quiet reflection and appreciation of the sun, it's warmth and life giving force. It is a time to plant new seeds so they may be cultivated in the Spring, the seeds of those desires and those that will actually bloom with the coming of the sun and rain. This is the time of the year where the days get shorter and the nights longer. The Sun God looses His battle with the God of the Death and Darkness, only to return triumphant in the Spring. It is the cycle of birth, death and rebirth � as happens to all things in nature. Not to mention it�s fun to dress up, eat lots of rich foods, candies and sweets and just celebrate the fact that you are alive! Brighid [ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

10-31-2002, 12:34 PM	#19
Wyz_sub10 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the land of two boys and no sleep. Posts: 9,890	We had a discussion on this thread <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=54&t=000910" target="_blank">http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=54&t=000910</a> about the "evils of Halloween" based on the insight of Jack Chick. [ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Wyz_sub10 ]</p>

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10-31-2002, 10:27 AM	#11
Perchance Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,059	I've read Christian rants in the past that focus on the aspects of death as well as the supposed performance of magic. Perhaps it's both that troubles them. After all, if someone's religious belief is partially motivated by a desire to escape death, then a supposed "celebration" of death is hardly going to sit well. -Perchance.

10-31-2002, 10:45 AM	#13
Writer@Large Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 7,198	The best researched, the most in-depth, and (to my knowledge)the most correct response to accusations of "Satanic" Halloween or the "evil druidic origins" of the same can be found here: <a href="http://www.illusions.com/halloween/" target="_blank">Halloween: Myths, Monsters, and Devils</a>. Make your friend read it; if he still persists in insisting Halloween is evil, than he truly is a raving fundy, for he will be ignoring actual evidence, instead of fear-induced myth and lore. Another good history is <a href="http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/samhain/1031_realorigins.html" target="_blank">Issac Bonewits' The Real Origins of Halloween</a>. Unlike the above link, though, this one is written by a neo-pagan, and your friend would likely find that an unacceptable bias. --W@L

10-31-2002, 10:50 AM	#14
Harumi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 3,184	Thank you. I will show a printout of the sites you recommended, not so much to convince the fundie (because he's completely hopeless), but to convince my English friend, who's parents bought the propaganda and she's bought it too. The "My parents told me so" really doesn't cut it once you become a skeptic, doesn't it? Would have worked once though. Which is what scares me. I ranted to my friends and described the conversation to them. Half of them were theists, and all of them had the same reaction as I had. I don't know whether it is because of critical thinking or because of the culture in which they were raised. Nevertheless, I was hesitant to celebrate my triumph so I brought it here, where intelligent people can give me honest answers not influenced from bias or propaganda.

10-31-2002, 11:17 AM	#17
Harumi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 3,184	Which reminds me, I used "fool" to describe him! I must be involved in devil worship! I must be going to hell! does sexy, evil, demonic dance

10-31-2002, 12:33 PM	#18
raimee New Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 2	Well, as adults we know that Halloween can be traced back in human history some 2K years to dysfunctional Celtic farmers. But why do people recognize it today?<a href="http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2002/October/20/biz/stories/01biz.htm" target="_blank">Big Business</a> It drives they economy! So lets just call it what it is and get on with it. And it's hardly 'trick or treat'. It's more like 'pass the candy'. Yes, I knocked on a few doors in my childhood. And with no idea why other than I could fill bags with candy. So I don't begrudge the expense and inconvenience now, just the B.S. that shoved down our throats from the marketing mages.

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