andy_d

Hey, you can speak for me with that one

If something works, it sure ain't false. The trick is to realise that different things work for different people.

I'd like to find whatever eejit came up with the idea of universal truth and give him a slap in the head. Damn fool idea.

triplew00t

<laughs softly> I think you guys took my post wrong. The pagans who I had such a POSITIVE experience with were on this board. My largest experience with them is elsewhere, and THAT is where I get disgusted by them. Those I find elsewhere tend to be new age woo-woos that accept everything without thinking about it in the slightest. It is you guys that I like to talk to about it, and that is why I keep coming back here.

Nero

emotional

Atheists do make the objective truth claim that nature is all there is. And all its corollaries are objective truth claims as well. Saying there are no gods, or no life after death, is an objective truth claims. Atheists do claim their view is universal, ie it's true for all people everywhere all the time.

Oh, certainly it's standard to say, "I'll believe in gods upon evidence", but when a theist comes here with "evidence for gods", it is usually critiqued. The worldview of metaphysical naturalism is incredibly plastic and any evidence can be made to fit it. Witness how near-death experiences are explained away as an illusion of the brain, thus neatly drawing them into the fold of metaphysical natuarlism. Metaphysical naturalism is an a priori view just as unfalsifiable as Christian theism in the end.

emotional

So you're not disgusted with paganism, you're disgusted with the New Age. Same as I am. I too can't stand the attitude of "these crystals will cure you and can be used in foretelling the future". I don't believe in divination, crop circles, ley lines, healing energies and all that stuff. I'm a bit miffed about people lumping me with the New Age just because I'm a spiritualist.

In the end, Buddha's words are pertinent:

You don't have to find a labelled belief. Just take some and blend them, make up your own. You just have to take the challenge of blending philosophical Taoism with the Greek gods.

brighid

I am glad to hear your experience here is positive. I have (a while back) frequented New-Age/Pagan/Witch boards. I found many who were drawn to Paganism but couldn't buy the whole "the Gods are real" line of thought. I think there are probably quite a few secular pagans out there, but they keep to themselves more or less.

I am a godless heathen! That baffles some pagans, but by and large they accept it as the path I have chosen, one that may not be right for them but IS right for me.

Paganism can be a journey of self-discovery and it does require that one look within and without to find the answers. I think there are plenty of kooky people regardless of what religion you come across, and these people believe all sorts of whacky stuff. Most are on a journey just like you are, but many aren't ready yet to relinquish superstition for personal responsibility. Hopefully they will get to that point sooner rather then later.

Brighid

emotional

Aquila did say once that the pagans are not so different from the Christians:

Which I find startling, as Eric S Raymond, in his Paganism FAQ, says paganism is the antithesis to faith:

In the end, for me, paganism lost its appeal especially because it depends on subjective experientalism. This reliance on Subjective Religious Experiences of the gods and goddesses splits people into spiritual have and have-nots, and I happen to be one of the have-nots. I've never had a single spiritual experience in my life.

That, and my fear of death, and the unavailability of green nature areas in the city, made me leave paganism.

tribalbeeyatch

Some may, but I don't. And I would wager that the majority of the posters here wouldn't make those sorts of claims either, if you'd bother to ask. It doesn't seem to be much of an imposition to ask that you qualify sweeping generalizations such as these by saying "some atheists" or even "most atheists" if you believe these ideas to represent the norm.
And the problem with this is what exactly? Nobody who shares their opinion can reasonably demand no discussion or dissent regardless of the forum. To complain about something so benign as 'critique' of "evidence for gods" in this forum strikes me as absurd. Where did you get the idea that either metaphysical naturalism or Christianity was unfalsifiable?

emotional

I've never seen any "evidence for gods" accepted as such. It's as if the atheists had taken an oath not to accept any evidence for gods beforehand. I just can't think of any theistic argument that could possibly convince the atheist.

Vice versa is also correct, though.

I get the idea from the plasticity of the positions. Both metaphysical naturalism and Christian theism can absorb any sort of evidence into their framework.

No-one knows the truth. Everyone is shaped by preconceived ideas. The only thing left for the sane person is to guess, to believe what the truth may be.

pmurray

I find atheism and materialism to be immensely satisfying. To me, my life (mental and physical) is like the flame of a candle. Like a flame, it only exists in that it is a process. The physical components of a flame are consumed in the act of being that flame.

To me, memory is not like experiences on a videotape, which are replayed by my mind. Memory is impression on the brain, true, but my brain is me. So we hold our memories by making them part of ourselves, part of the person who we are. Every moment I change, like the flame. Each momemt I become a slightly different person to the person I was a moment before - yet I am still myself.

To me, the debates about free will are a chimera - they come from an underlying assumption of dualism. A dualism that I do not agree with - the idea that there is a free will, an authentic me, that is somehow "out there", and asks how it interacts with the physical world and our physical bodies "down here".

I say it is silly to argue whether my "me" is subject to my hormones and my neurons. My body is myself. My hormones and my neurons is my me. One might as well ask if the waves are free to crash onto the beach, or if they are subject to the atomic reactions between the molecules.

So, I have become comfortable with extinguishment. Why struggle to exist after death? Fill the life you have with meaning, and this will be enough.

Of course, when the time comes I shall fight it. This is also the Tao. People is what they are, me no less than anyone else.

Women excel at self-deception. Sure she's nuts, but no more so than most of the rest of 'em. That's why we men rule the world, and always will. Deep down, she values you for keeping your feet on the ground. Just give her good lovin and keep bringing home the bacon.

Women. Can't live with 'em ... pass the beer nuts.

andy_d

pmurray: I think that post just made my day