Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Grumpy · 05-08-2002, 03:27 PM

Changing it to "Murder" doesn't help, anyway. What is murder? Unlawful killing. So we conclude from the commandment that it is unlawful to kill unlawfully. However, it is lawful to kill lawfully, i.e. if someone is trying to kill you or someone else, or if God specifically says it's OK (see list of capital crimes).

I imagine the "War" exception is supposed to fall under the former case (except when it falls under the latter). But in that case, the enemy soldier is also killing in self-defense. Unless individuals waive the right to self-defense when their nations instigate hostilities.

As for the second of those two exceptions, we get into deep Euthyphyro territory when we let God ordain which acts are worthy of execution. And, humanist though I may be, I'm not sure it helps matters to let mere mortals make that judgment call.

wordsmyth · 05-09-2002, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy:
<strong>Changing it to "Murder" doesn't help, anyway. What is murder? Unlawful killing. So we conclude from the commandment that it is unlawful to kill unlawfully. However, it is lawful to kill lawfully, i.e. if someone is trying to kill you or someone else, or if God specifically says it's OK (see list of capital crimes).
</strong>

Thats a good point. "Thou shalt not murder" would seem rather redundant.

Grumpy · 05-09-2002, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wordsmyth:
"Thou shalt not murder" would seem rather redundant.

By itself, it is inadequate without more detailed statutory definitions. Oh look, there they are in Numbers 35:16-18 (a.k.a. God Plays Scissors, Rock, Paper):

Quote:

And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

There you have it. Strangulation, drowning, poisoning, even electrocution are emphatically NOT murder.

Incidentally, the word you see translated as "murderer," ratsach, is used only once in Exodus: as part of the commandment (and is repeated in the same context in Deuteronomy). However, in Deuteronomy 19:4-5, ratsach is used with reference to *accidental* killings.

Very perplexing. Would YHWH care to add any footnotes?

ex-preacher · 05-09-2002, 03:14 PM

I like Martin Luther King, Jr.'s translation of the sixth commandment. He said it meant "Don't kill an Israelite, but for God's sake kill a Philistine!"

(I found it in a book of MLK quotes edited by Coretta Scott King.)

wordsmyth · 05-09-2002, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy:
<strong>There you have it. Strangulation, drowning, poisoning, even electrocution are emphatically NOT murder.</strong>

Well, considering they didn't have electricity back then, I don't imagine they would have considered electrocution as murder. Your probably ok if you shoot someone too since thats not covered either.

"thou shalt not murder" still seems rather redundant for the context of a law. Its apparent however, based on the passage you posted from Deuteronomy that "thou shalt not murder" still poses some inconsistencies with certain events in the bible.

It also seems very odd that its apparently acceptable to strangle someone. Would have made the battles more amusing though if everyone ran around trying to strangle one another so as not to break the commandment.

"murder" may be the original wording, but "kill" seems to be more in keeping with the spirit and context of Exodus. Not to mention that we can't be sure it was all written by the same person as most scholars now believe that even some books like Genesis are actually two parallel stories written by different people and then combined.

I guess it just seems strange that God would pass down a commandment such as "thou shalt not murder" and not clarify what constitutes as murder until deuteronomy. Whereas, "thou shalt not kill" needs no clarification.

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05-08-2002, 03:27 PM	#11
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Changing it to "Murder" doesn't help, anyway. What is murder? Unlawful killing. So we conclude from the commandment that it is unlawful to kill unlawfully. However, it is lawful to kill lawfully, i.e. if someone is trying to kill you or someone else, or if God specifically says it's OK (see list of capital crimes). I imagine the "War" exception is supposed to fall under the former case (except when it falls under the latter). But in that case, the enemy soldier is also killing in self-defense. Unless individuals waive the right to self-defense when their nations instigate hostilities. As for the second of those two exceptions, we get into deep Euthyphyro territory when we let God ordain which acts are worthy of execution. And, humanist though I may be, I'm not sure it helps matters to let mere mortals make that judgment call.

05-09-2002, 03:14 PM	#14
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	I like Martin Luther King, Jr.'s translation of the sixth commandment. He said it meant "Don't kill an Israelite, but for God's sake kill a Philistine!" (I found it in a book of MLK quotes edited by Coretta Scott King.)

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