-DM-

1.) Christianity invented an illness, "sin."
2.) It then took a natural event, death, and attributed it to "sin."
3.) It then began peddling what amounts to a snake-oil cure, namely "Salvation" through Jesus.

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Salvation: That which spares a vulnerable soul the discomfort
of a fiery pit so that it may endure an eternity of harp music. -
Rick Bayan "The Cynic's Dictionary" Hearst Books, N.Y., 1992

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Heaven: That place about which men who have never been brag to
men who will never go there. - H. L. Mencken (1880-1956) U.S.
journalist, editor, critic

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Christians believe that the most wonderful thing that can
happen to them is to go to Heaven, but few of them are in a
hurry to make the trip. - (Source unknown)

--Don--

-DM-

Exactly!

And so-called "free-will" doesn't get "God" off the hook. "He" could have created us with free-will AND with the quality of character such that -- even though we exercised our free-will and made our own choices -- we made right choices.

The buck stops with "God".

Besides, the Bible itself says that "God" is responsible for evil.

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1SA 16:14-23 Evil spirits can come from God (and be exorcised with God's help).

1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, JE 4:10, JE 20:7, EZ 14:9 God deceives some of the prophets (sometimes for the purpose of getting rid of them). [Note: death is required for a prophet who has been deceived even if deceived by God himself.]

IS 45:6-7, LA 3:8, AM 3:6 God is responsible for evil.

EZ 20:25 God says that he intentionally gave out bad laws. (This means that God-given laws or commandments are sometimes suspect.)

2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked (to be able to condemn them). (Note: Every word of God cannot prove true if God deceives anyone at all.)

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--Don--

KweschunThEAnserz

quoted by QueenofSwords:
The Bible does give strong indications that people who never hear about him (young or ignorant) will not be "condemned." I'm sure you've heard the argument before in regards to the Bible talking about finding God in nature and God saving young children in evil surroundings.

As far as him staying here as a man, would it really make a difference. I mean people would still reject him today as they did back then. I can imagine all the excuses people would make to rule this man out. Whether he's a man down here or not, people still will want to do things their own way. Even if everyone did acknowledge he was God as a man, most reject him and still blame him for everything that happens that we don't like today. At least thats what I think

What I was asking before is what could God possibly SACRIFICE to show his love. Not what could God do for us to please us. I'm still hearing problems that people have with God, not ways they think God could have sacrificed something FOR us.


Quoted from kwigibo:
According to the Bible (heh, guess that doesn't mean much to most here, but anyhow..) God suffers in the sense that he's losing his children. This is how I've looked at it (not the way someone told me to look at it) If your teenage child is rebelling against you, or your wife's love is straying away... take that feeling and globally multiply it, and thats how God feels for us. Now I know you'll say that if God felt this way, he would do something. Well he does, just not in the way that's convenient for most people. I find joy (not happiness always) in everything that happens in my life good or bad. But thats just me...
Ok, this is getting too damn long. I suppose I'm wasting my time because you've probably heard these arguments and better ones numerous times, so, enlighten me otherwise oh, and thanks for the responses!

Mageth

I'm still hearing problems that people have with God, not ways they think God could have sacrificed something FOR us.

Sorry, we may have confused you a little bit. You see, most of us who have replied are atheistic towards the Judeo-Christian Jehovah/Jesus god as "revealed" in the bible (and perhaps most of us to any definition of god(s)). We sometimes, in our arguments, say things like "God could have..." or "Why would god..."; this is merely for convenience. It is not meant to imply that we actually believe in god and "have problems" with him. It's the human-created definitions of gods that we are actually referring to.

What I was asking before is what could God possibly SACRIFICE to show his love

To be blunt, there is no god (in particular no Judeo-Christian god). The reason I say this is wrapped up in the very question (and alluded to in the responses to the question.) A god with the omnimax characteristics typically assigned to the JC god wouldn't have to sacrifice anything to "show his love."

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by KweschunThEAnserz:
<strong>The Bible does give strong indications that people who never hear about him (young or ignorant) will not be "condemned."</strong>

Firstly, I'd like a quote to back this up.

Secondly, here's a scenario. A person from another culture hears a quick summary of Jesus's life, death, etc. from a passing missionary. The missonary tells him to repent. While this person is considering the implications of the matter, the consequences of turning away from his culture, family, traditions, etc. a coconut falls on his head and kills him.

Where does he go?

<strong>I'm sure you've heard the argument before in regards to the Bible talking about finding God in nature and God saving young children in evil surroundings.</strong>

Not really. Please elaborate, with quotes from the Bible.

<strong>As far as him staying here as a man, would it really make a difference.</strong>

Why shouldn't it?

<strong>I mean people would still reject him today as they did back then. I can imagine all the excuses people would make to rule this man out.</strong>

Do you mean that his miracles and preaching would be ineffectual and would not garner many converts? Perhaps he could try to improve and thereby save more souls?

Even if people made excuses to rule him out, surely he would be able to save more people than, say, Oral Roberts has done. Or perhaps not?

<strong>Whether he's a man down here or not, people still will want to do things their own way. Even if everyone did acknowledge he was God as a man, most reject him and still blame him for everything that happens that we don't like today.</strong>

Well, he's still being rejected and blamed for a lot of things. His staying on earth to fix some of the bad things could only be a blessing. Also, it would be firm evidence for the existence of a god; I think you would have a lot fewer atheists if a god was actually present on earth. He could be like Forrest Gump, interacting with famous people throughout the course of history.

<strong>What I was asking before is what could God possibly SACRIFICE to show his love. Not what could God do for us to please us.</strong>

He could sacrifice his bloodthirsty nature and desire for vengeance.

KweschunThEAnserz

Quoted by Mageth:
Point taken. But why ask on an atheist forum if you don't believe he exists? Or were they hoping for a Theist to respond?
Heh, I'm gonna go look up Omnimax now

QueenofSwords: I'll respond later hopefully with exactly what I wanted to find. I gotta stop interneting @ work!

Mageth

Omnimax: Omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent,...

davidH

Yeah, but what else would prove that God loved you?

Imagine if you were on death row and someone who didn't deserve to die came along and took your place and you were allowed to go free. What would you feel like?
More over would you not ask why that person did it?

Had you been on death row and he had showed up and gave you a gift and wished you all the best....

No, but the fact that he died shows how serious he was about us. Would you give your life in exchange for someone else's unless u had a good reason for doing so? I doubt it.
But in order that he be shown to be God he rose from the dead. Death can't overcome him but when he rose he defeated death.
And we as Christians put our trust in the one who overcame death.

I had a conversation about this with a fellow and about how God can be just and there still be a hell. I reckon it would be good if I posted it here cause it would help you see why.

But I don't know if I can...do I have to ask the other fellow before I can do that? Dunno, I'll write to him and see.

Mageth

Imagine if you were on death row and someone who didn't deserve to die came along and took your place and you were allowed to go free. What would you feel like?

This would be a gross violation of how we define "justice," would it not? Would you want Tim McVeigh set free because someone else decided to die in his place? How would his victims feel about it (I don't give a rat's ass about his feelings on the matter). Fortunately the legal system would not allow such a thing.

And what have I done to deserve being on God's "death row?" He condemns me to die and then decides to die in my place? What kind of a screwed-up system is that? Why didn't he just say "Oh, on second thought, never mind; I'll let you go"?

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

Megatron

&lt;George Carlin&gt;

And it's definitely "HE". God has to be a man, because no woman could ever fuck things up like this!

&lt;/George Carlin&gt;

Honestly... I think you hit the nail right on the head there, Don.