CALDONIA

Vinnie,

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, how is it possible for anything to be against His will? If is it possible for Man to sin, it is only because He created this same possibility.

Therefore, we do not "earn" salvation (or hell) and must suffer as subjects of a manipulative and not-so-loving Deity -- if we are to accept the existence of such an impossible being.

Tercel

CALDONIA:
A question for a question:
If God is omnipotent is it possible for him to create beings which can (or give beings the power to) do things against His will?

Since Christians generally assert that he has indeed done so, it seems that clear cut pre-destined-by-God-to-burn-forever theology does not necessarily follow.

Tercel

Did he? Really? I must have missed that one. Is there really a verse in the Bible where Jesus says that above 50% of people will burn forever in Hell? Or is that just your Personal (Mis)InterpretationTM: Inspired by the Holy Spirit no doubt...

Yeah, funny that: I would have thought he'd discredit the parts of the Bible he agreed with and cling to the passages he didn't.
But maybe... -just maybe- ...it's the other way around. Maybe he disagrees with the parts of the Bible he sees as having been discredited by what he knows or has learned (~gasp~) and accepts the parts of the Bible he sees as have been evidenced or shown to be believable in light of his experience and knowledge.
Of course we can rule that one out a priori since he's a theist and therefore can't be rational anyway.

Haven't you just answered your own question?

I find it unlikely his answer's going to be: I flip a coin. More likely is answer something along the lines of "I ask how well it stacks up against other knowledge" which you've just said. Or is that answer reserved for atheists?

CALDONIA

Tercel,

An omnipotent god that deliberately creates beings who CAN act contrary to his will is a masochist and a sadist at the same time.

Tercel

That's an interesting view. Would you say the same thing applies to human rulers? Are they "a masochist and a sadist at the same time" if they do not force everyone to obey their rule? Or is God a special case?

Amos

Some "Christians" think that whomever they "save" will be in their "mansion," and of course, the more they save the bigger their mansion will need to be.

The levels of hell are determined by the strength and the amount of Gods wrath we consumed out of the cup of his anger (Rev. 14:10).

CALDONIA

Tercel,

Human rulers do not "create" their subjects, like god, but inherit them, subjugate them or persuade them. Human rulers do not have the power of anything else but persuasion and force. God's power is beyond that, it is the power of Creation. That is the part that makes me think that God is easily distracted or simply doesn't give a shit.

Psycho Economist

I haven't forgotten about your post, and I haven't conceded either... just been too busy with life beyond IIDB to commit to the involved response your reply deserves.
Here's where (among a few other places) where it says few people will go to heaven and many are condemned to Hell... side by side even:
Few / (Few + Many) < 50%, if Few < Many. Last time I checked, anyway.
Why do you accept neurological evidence that says and schizophrenia, epillepsy... all manner of mental disorders have biological bases, when the Bible repeatedly says and implies demons cause these afflictions? Why, conversely do you not accept neurological evidence that brain function is a prerequisite for mental functions, precluding the possibility of an afterlife for which there is no affirmative evidence? Of course you didn't flip a coin. I never said you did.

How would I suppose you'd answer this question:
You take what you want to believe, what you want to be true (because various cultural, and intellectual influences), out of each. We all do this, even atheists. And not just on matters of theology. The questions to consider: Are we aware of it? Are we taking steps to prevent or minimize it?

On the one hand: you want easy, reliable treatment for mental disorders should you or someone you know be afflicted with one. On the other hand: you want blissful eternal life after you die. So the same psychology that's "right" about disorders, isn't yet on the right track about consciousness... and the same Bible that's "right" about eternal life is primitively mistaken about the causes of mental disorder.

There's nothing wrong with that being the case. (Unless you've pledged yourself purely to fundamentalism or science&trade;.) As the movie line goes, "We don't choose our beilefs; they choose us."

One last thing of my own before I get off the soapbox (more for Vinny than Tercel). The notion that "being good" by human standards is irrelevant to salvation is an overwhelming theme in the New Testament. Romans 3 is a whole chapter devoted to the subject.
And one more reply:
Yeah, the Bible does say that your God chooses people to be unbelievers, and when he's done using them for his own ends, tortures them in Hell for eternity because of their lack of faith. (John 12:40, Acts 13:48) Charming, ain't it?

Tercel

Whoops, I actually entirely forgot about that Few/Many statement...

I can't say I see the relevance of Mat 7:21. It says nothing on how many or few will go to heaven/hell, but argues that salvation is dependent upon "works" not belief - a fairly common theme of Matthew.

Back to the many/few thing. Well what can I say, except that I don't agree with it. I would point out that given that the Luke and Matthew verses on this would both be coming from Q (I assume) that would seem to make the "less than 50% of people go to heaven" doctrine dependent upon one verse. While one-verse supported doctrines might be okay if you buy inerrancy, they're fairly dubious if you don't.
I have seen it argued by inerrantists that "few" and "many" here are relative terms and in fact few > many and >50% of people go to heaven etc. I have no wish to argue that, since what the writer meant is clear: I simply have to disagree with the writer.

Is there necessarily a contradiction here? These disorders appear to be physical events, but whether they do or don't have a spiritual cause is not something neurological evidence can tell us.

Because no such neurological evidence exists, nor could it conceivably ever do so even if your conclusion was in fact the case.

I find your lumping of "psychology" as being "right" or "wrong" about something as if it were one thing, somewhat strange. There are plenty of psychologists with differing views on things like consciousness as far as I am aware, some of whom agree with me, some of whom agree with you.

I beg to differ. Romans 3 seems to be more a re-statement of the doctrine of the Fall and a denial of the possibility of acheiving a perfect life.
Have a read of the last part of Matthew 25, where Matthew's theme of "goodness" based salvation finds its clearest statement. 1 John also has a lot to say on the subject, as does Colossians.

Not really very charming, nor consistent with the nature of God as presented elsewhere in the Bible: Which is why I don't believe in predestination.

Kosh

P.E.,

I call it "Salad Bar Christianity" (TM). Feel free to use that term, since as with my first trademarked phrase "Ignorant Bronze Age Goat Herders" (TM), I am not yet charging royalties.