Wyz_sub10

In another thread I mentioned that many fundies seem to equate ignorance with virtue. I find this to be especially true when they speak of "questionning god". But we even see this in anti-science circles - people who feel they don't need "book learnin'" to know the truth.

(I used the example of Dennis Lee promoting his free energy machine, which supposedly runs contrary to scientific principles, by announcing to the Christian crowd, "I may not be a smart man. I many not be an educated man. But I'm god's man."

So the questions are: can "god's man" be a "smart man" or is "ignorance bliss"? Are the two mutually exclusive in religion?

Oxidizing Material

Short answer: No

Long answer: Yes

Joel

It's been my experience that religion discourages thinking of any sort. You're just supposed to have faith and don't ask so many questions.

I would say it's fairly difficult to get past the ignorance if you aren't supposed to think for yourself.

This of course isn't true of all religious people, but it seems to be the majority.

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Joel ]</p>

Albion

I'm getting tired of seeing comments about how lovely it is to see these puffed-up intellectuals (who of course are their own gods on account of atheists hate the real god) shown to be wrong about things. I also find it worrying to see comments about how atheists tend to have more education than Christians and that therefore education is something to be avoided, and how learning for its own sake is bad.

They seem to be saying that God gave us brains for the same reason he provided the tree in Eden - as sources of temptation to be mistrusted and avoided if you don't want to suffer a terrible fate.

GeoTheo

I think this is a fair question. I think it is very hard to be intellectual and a fundamentalist Christian. Or I should say it is hard to be both intellectually honest and a fundamentalist Christian. I am just now finding this out. The hard way. I am being kicked out of my church for believing in evolution. Neither the Pastor nor the deacons are well versed enough in biology to even engage in a discussion with me either. I am a second year biology student. I was turned in to the Pastor after I told a fellow church member the ICR book he let me borrow helped to convince me of evolution. We debated about it for a while, and I felt, departed friends. The next day I get a call from my Pastor saying he heard "I had fallen into somebad doctrine.
I really don't know what my friend expected my Pastor to do. Cast out a demon?
But I don't think this means God does not exist, or that I will eventually be forced to reject God as I continue to persue knowledge. I think truth can withstand scrutiny. That is the point. I don't think Christians should fear asking hard questions. I am also finding out that Christianity is alive and well outside fundamentalism, though I think people tend to swing the pendulum too far.

wade-w

Martin Luter, the founder of the protestant reformation, had a very low opinion of human thought processes.

Here are some of his "thoughts" on the subject:

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word...."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."

"The damned whore Reason...."

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason."

This is a sample of what the "great reformer" thought about the subject of reason. He also appaently felt that we should have singularly closed minds, because he also said:

"So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard."

A more complete selection of quotations from the man from whom all protestant theology is ultimately descended can be found at:

<a href="http://www.2think.org/hii/mlquotes.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.2think.org/hii/mlquotes.shtml</a>

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: wadew ]</p>

Hayden

I'm sorry to hear that. Why did they just kick you out instead of trying to help you (to their point of view, at least)? That seems a bit harsh, IMO.

On another note: once you believe the bible is flawed in at least some respects, is it not easier to believe that it's completely false? For example, if God didn't create the world in 6 days, maybe Moses made up the Ten Commandments. Maybe Moses never existed. You get the picture.

Anyway
HR

GeoTheo

I'm not kicked out yet. The deacons have to vote on it. I am supposed to turn in a paper stating (in 500 words or less) what I believe. Then they will decide. I think it is a foregone conclusion, however what they will decide. In their minds I think they did try to help me. But none of them know much about evolution, so they can't say much to try to convince me of YECism. This became obvious in our first meeting.
As far as why I don't now reject the Bible:
I don't think the Bible is wrong about evolution.
I think it is not concerned with evolution.
I think YECism is somthing that is put into the text.
It was written to teach moral and spiritual truths not allopatric speciation.

simian

Geotheo,

Sounds like you have a good start on your paper. Try to write it out concisely.

500 words or less? How the heck can they expect you to convey what you believe in that amount of space?

I would advise pointing out there are numerous creation stories in the bible (bits and piece of 18, if I remember correctly), I would suggest mentioning Jesus being taken to the top of a tall mountain to see "all the kingdoms of the world", and that this story is not taken literally. Of course, you have 500 words, and I just used up 102 above here.

So I don't know what to suggest you write. Let us know how it turns out. I assume you would label yourself as a Christian. If your church kicks you out, find one that is more along the lines of what you believe or can accept.

Simian

RufusAtticus

Give that man a prise! He hit the bullseye.

If only more Christians understood that, we wouldn't score so badly on science tests.